SPC096 [HS] Logging Is Not Learning — Inside FlyORKA’s Feedback Loop

you've logged the hours, you've got the certificate, so why does it feel

like you're guessing up there sometimes?

Turns out there may be a reason for that, and it's not your lack of talent.

Today, we crack it open with Fly ORKA in episode 96 of the Student

Fly, Learn, Repeat

Welcome back to the Student Pilot Cast.

I'm Bill, and today's conversation kind of ambushed me.

I sat down with Adriana at Oshkosh this year.

She's the founder of FlyORKA, expecting kind of an app demo.

Instead, I walked away with a line that's been stuck in my head ever

logging is not learning.

Adriana's background is kind of wild.

Flight test engineer, glider record holder, someone who's spent her career

learning to fly airplanes nobody's ever flown before, and she's built a whole

training philosophy around one idea: We don't learn from experience directly.

We learn from reflecting on that experience.

That's basically our tagline here at the podcast with some extra steps.

Fly, learn, repeat.

So I wanted to know exactly how she turns that into something a student

pilot can use after every single flight.

So here's my conversation with Adriana from FlyORKA.

I want to say before you watch or listen to this, we had some technical

difficulties during the recording.

Completely my fault.

It was an at Oshkosh kind of problem, bad setup on the camera and the audio

that I have since fixed, but it resulted in us losing some of the footage and

audio randomly during the discussion.

So I had to edit this in a way that makes it seem like it's kind of a normal flow,

but it might seem a little disjointed at times, and it's totally my fault.

My apologies to my audience, as well as to Adriana.

I just think it means we'll have to get together again sometime

and continue the conversation.

uh, welcome Back SPC listeners.

Uh, I have the honor today to be sitting here with Adriana from Fly ORKA.

Uh, I know you, what you might be thinking, I hadn't heard of it either.

But I saw something that kinda stopped me in my tracks a little bit, and that was

a, a quote, "Logging is not learning."

Adriana, would you mind giving a little bit of background for yourself, and

then also in the process answering the question of what does that

mean and why is that important?

Yeah.

Um, well, my background, uh, I, I came into flying wanting

to become a test pilot.

I went … I- I was lucky enough to land in the field of flight test and

practice, uh, flight test engineering professionally as a flight test engineer.

Um, I loved the artistry of flying, and that took me to, that took me into

soaring gliders- Mm … and flying tailwheel airplanes and aerobatics.

Eventually, um, training, uh, focusing on ab initio flight training, working

with a lot of student pilots, uh, helping people get their tailwheel

endorsements all over the world, and, and, and, and, and soaring, you know?

Exploring-

Yeah

… the, how fantastic, uh, soaring can be, which is technically

using the power of the sun to go long distances without an engine.

Yeah, incredible.

Yes.

Yes.

Well, and so you ask a question, well, what do I mean by, by

logging is, is not learning?

Yes.

Um, and I, I go back to, you know, I, I love the analogy of flight

test to explain this because flight test is all about taking a brand new

airplane and making it fly safely.

Mm-hmm.

And we, um, we, we go a- out there as a crew, and when we jump in the airplane,

we, we, we, we are really intentional about observing everything we can,

recording, and coming back from that test flight with something we can share-

Mm-hmm

… with engineers.

You have people working on the engine, on the aerodynamics.

You have people working on, in, in ev- you know, in all parts of what

does it take to, to make a brand-new airplane s- fly safely, right?

And being able to share, uh, to share what, to share information

with them, it's, does something, um, that, well, very powerful.

When you can, when you can share that information, you not only work to fly

safely, but become a competent pilot.

Okay.

Yeah.

And how does, how does that- H- how is that informed?

What is, what do you think you're bringing that's different from

the way training is happening today from that flight test world?

From the flight test world.

Okay.

So the key things is, is it's very subtle, but it's really impactful.

closing the gap between you not being able to do something and

doing it, and, and doing it well, because we have to meet a standard.

Yeah.

So when you focus on, oh, you have to… When you

focus on the milestone, uh,

you lose sight of the actual actions that get you to the milestone.

Okay.

So the in between is how do we learn as humans?

Uh-huh.

How do we learn?

And that's the caveat.

It, yes, we need benchmarks to know how we're doing.

We need milestones because we need to know the standard.

But we want to ask the question, what happens in between?

And that's learning.

That's where learning is not logging

on.

Um, because, uh, so from flight test, then the, um, the, the best thing about

flight test, I think you can learn from it, is that what's happening,

you are testing a brand new airplane.

We don't know what we don't know.

And we approach each flight with, um, the, um, to observe how the a-

airplane behaves, how the airplane responds, almost with curiosity.

Like, we are going to do this, then what happens?

Mm.

Let's go ahead and do this.

What happens?

We are collecting data points and recording all those data points without

judging, just recording the data points.

Okay.

Like, nobody's, nobody's giving you a hard time, right?

It's just, we're just recording,

We all figure out, well, what are the shortcomings of the airplane?

How do we… What's the next step?

And sharing information.

Mm-hmm.

So I'm diving deeper into this because, um, um, I'm genuinely trying to

find out how, how it's different, right?

Yeah.

So you could make the argument that logging- How you doing?

… or time-

Yeah

… Bill: would give you the experience to do some discovery.

Yes.

So tell me- How you doing?

… why just the experience isn't enough.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Tell me what you're bringing that's, that's different, um, so that- Mm-hmm

… that time that you spend logging-

Mm-hmm

is, is used most valuably.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, um, there is a quote that I really like that, that basically says

that we don't learn from experience.

Okay.

We learn from reflecting on experience.

Okay.

And, um, so, like, for this, like you may understand, like

you can think of yourself maybe, uh, repeating, maybe, maybe, uh, picture

yourself, um, like, like screwing up something again and again and again.

And at some point, you choose decision-

Mm-hmm

… Adriana: to do something different next time, and that's when learning happens.

Got it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I like that a lot.

Um, the tagline for the podcast is fly- Yeah … learn, repeat.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I- Yeah … I like to focus on that learn part.

Yeah.

How do we learn from it?

And, uh, so what I talk about is- Fly,

learn, repeat.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what I talk about is, um, uh, you know, after every

single flight, take a minute-

Mm-hmm

… Bill: to reflect, what did I do- Mm … that could've been better?

What I … And that's kinda what you're talking about,

right?

Yeah.

So basically we're breaking out how do we learn, because,

um, it's, it's not your fault.

Like, um, we generally are forgetting about how do we learn best because, uh,

uh, even, even the education system is now focused on so- on the milestones so much.

that we, i- it, it started to forget about learning.

How do we learn?

Um, and so what O- ORKA is, is an acronym.

It stands for observe, record, know yourself, assess and adjust.

Okay.

So we break it down to how do we, how do we best learn?

So I can tell that there's passion around this.

Would you mind sharing with my listeners and viewers where that passion came from?

Yeah.

Okay.

What was the origin story- Okay … of how you were thinking about this?

Oh, yeah.

There are so many different angles.

Okay.

I, you know, we have so many a- a- aspects of ourselves, of our being, and I think I

was moved at, in every aspect of my being.

So the first one was, uh, when I was a flight test engineer,

I remember this perfectly.

I was in the telemetry room, and it hit me, and inside, like, a lot

more than befo- like, more than ever before, people are pursuing flight.

More people have the, the confidence to say, "I want to learn how to fly." And

just recognizing that, that every year, we … It just seems like it is taking more

and more, uh, money to learn how to fly.

But knowing that a lot of that m- a, a lot of that money is, is going

into waste, meaning that people have to repay for flight training-

Mm-hmm

again.

Yeah.

Um, and, and, and almost with a lot of, with a lot of frustration And,

um, the, the other thing is going back to my, my flight training journey.

when I moved to the US, I, um, I was born in Mexico.

I learned to fly in Mexico.

I went through a program.

You graduate, and you get your pilot certificate.

I kid you not, like, the type of, like, for during my entire training journey, I

was, I was really looking for feedback, for some, for, for honest, sincere

feedback to, to help me become the best and most competent pilot- Mm-hmm

you know, that I, that I could be.

And, you know, imagine waiting your entire flight training journey for that feedback,

and when you, and, and when the actual feedback that you get when somebody says

something is like, "Well, you are the worst pilot that I've ever met." Well-

… that was, like, you know, like you've been waiting for somebody to say something.

Mm-hmm.

And what comes out from their mouths is like, "Well, you, you suck." Okay.

And maybe that was true.

But, you know, it made me aware that how, how painful it was not to get

feedback throughout my entire flight training journey, and recognizing that,

um, that we need that immediate, that we need consistent instant feedback-

Right

at every step because we, um … And, and turning the ball around, like, I,

it was, it was not me not being capable.

It was

the,

it was the, the lack of the feedback loop.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Because as soon as I started going-

You weren't learning because- I was, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I wanted, I always- Yeah, yeah … was craving for that, and recognizing

that I, I want to bring that in.

I want people to experience what, what learning feels like

because it's a lot of fun.

Yeah.

And I rediscovered that through, through basically, uh, saying I'm

going to make sure that I am a competent pilot, and how do we do that?

Well, let's go, let's, let's, let's, let's use my flight test

approach and basically train myself-

Mm-hmm

and surround myself with people that will give me feedback.

And next thing you know, I have 34 soaring records.

I have multiple badges.

Mm. I have trained thousands of pilots.

Uh, like I, it's, it's ne- it was never a question of capability.

Mm-hmm.

Never a question of capability.

It's just the learning process.

Yeah, it was-

Okay

… Adriana: not there.

All right.

Yeah.

Cool.

So tell me about FlyORKA.

How does it help?

Yeah.

How does it help with that?

It's a system that works with this feedback loop.

Um, so the feedback loop is the, the core of the, of what we do.

And everything in the, in the app, um, supports that loop.

Um, FLYORKA, just like fly, learn, do, um, or, and repeat.

Uh-huh.

Uh, it, it stands for, again, observe, record, know yourself-

Mm-hmm

… Adriana: assess, and adjust And everything we do supports, supports that.

Okay.

So is it, is it a way to, um, to draw feedback out of experience?

Right.

Um, and then record it and allow you to learn from it?

Tell me how it works.

Yeah.

Yeah, so we, um, so the…

We focus on, like, basically one principle.

When you make, when you can see, diagnose your next step.

So we focus on giving you tools to make that visible-

Okay

… Adriana: and, and make it shareable so that, you know, the, you, if you

can bring people in and more people can, can see it, uh, it's not just you

being able to see something, it's other people being able to see something

and, and it creates the, the, m- the mutual support and the collaboration

to im- to help you gain clarity.

Okay.

So who are these people that are helping you?

Is it, uh, is it an app that's used by yourself as the learner, your

instructor- Yes … maybe peers?

Yeah.

Like-

Everybody.

Yeah.

Okay.

Like, if you want to invite even your family or your girlfriend or, you

know, to follow you along your flight training journey, you can even invite

them, um, to, to see what you're doing.

And it, it is, it is, um… Because it's focused on the process, it's for

students, instructors, and flight schools.

Okay.

All right.

Um, it's not a curriculum, it's a, it's an assistant to the process.

Yes.

It is a pro… Yeah.

Like, uh, I know this may not resonate with students, but, uh, in terms

of… Because, uh, what we are doing here is a systems design thinking.

Uh, it is, it is designed to increase process reliability.

Mm-hmm.

So I'll give you an example.

Um, when you… Let's go back to aircraft, right?

You want to make sure that brand-new aircraft can fly safely

before they reach the customer.

Mm-hmm.

And, and before we do that, we go through a process to ensure that reliability- Okay

of the product.

Um, so it's like the process has to be reliable itself.

is going to go through a process that is reliable, that is going to

allow y- us to build the capability.

Uh, and ideally, the faster we build capability, guess what?

You will have money to work on your next goal.

Yeah, right.

Kind of repeat the cycle

Instead of going backwards and repeating lessons, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

a lot of my audience are prospective pilots or pilots or instructors.

Um, what is the one thing, even stripped away from maybe the product

itself, what is the one thing that you would want them to take away on

how to improve the learning process?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, we are great at wanting things and making some progress, especially us.

I think we, um, I- As pilots, right?

As pilots.

Mm-hmm.

We are highly capable people that will push through any challenge,

and we are hard core people.

you can think of doing aerobatics.

For you to learn aerobatics safely, like you… This is something you

learn from through other people.

Right.

Because it's, it's this tribe, tribal knowledge.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's not, it's not something that's very safe just to experiment with.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

And bringing that tribal knowledge back as the core of how we learn, because we

truly learn putting things together and putting them apart and collaborating.

Okay.

And, and literally, uh, like it, it, this, with this, uh, interactions, right?

So the one key things that, that I will, that I will say is that I know

you guys can do it, but if you want to accelerate your progress, but when you

can see all the pieces of the puzzle in front of you one month from now,

two months from now, three months from now, that on its own is going to reveal

a lot of the gaps you need to close.

And, and, and, and the things that, uh, that will give you the confidence

to say, "I am well prepared," or, "Let me work on these specific gaps." Okay.

But you will know because it will be there.

It will not be you overthinking, am I good enough?

Or regretting, oh, I should have- Oh, yeah … I should ha- should ha- should…

No, it's going to be there in front of you.

So document, share, and bring people- Okay … into your journey.

Yeah.

All right.

Thank you.

Um, is there anything I should have asked but I didn't?

Um, well, yeah.

So I will say, uh, so ORKA is not only an acronym, it's actually a

Swedish verb that means to have the energy to do something well.

And the cool thing about, uh, FLY ORKA, the acronym, is that that acronym is

designed to build momentum- Mm-hmm … to help improve faster, and it's linked to

the flyorc- the Swedish verb, which is basically having that momentum, right?

Uh-huh.

To that energy to keep, to do something well.

So it really links.

So when you FLY ORKA, when you fly, observe, record, uh, know yourself,

and assess, you are building that momentum to keep going, to keep going.

Okay.

Uh, yeah.

That makes sense.

Well, Adriana, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today.

It's a very interesting concept.

I'll make sure everyone knows how to reach your company and

check out your application.

but, really thought-provoking, and I think it'll be helpful for not only students,

but flight instructors like myself-

Yeah

uh, to be able to be thinking all the time about

how you can keep that momentum.

So thank you so much.

Likewise.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let's have some fun, right?

All right.

Thanks.

Yeah.

So here's what stuck with me.

First, logging is not learning.

You can rack up hours and still not close the gap between where

you are and where you need to be because logging tracks time, not the

actual learning or the reflection.

Second, that reflection needs structure.

Adriana's ORKA, observe, record, know yourself, and assess, isn't a curriculum

or something she's selling like that.

It's a scaffolding for the thing your brain is already

trying to do after every flight.

And third, make it visible.

Make it shareable.

Adriana waited her entire training journey for real feedback.

The fix isn't hoping that one instructor says the right thing at the right time.

It's building a feedback loop with your instructor, your peers, even the

people cheering for you on the ground.

And one more thing, and this isn't a sponsorship.

I don't do paid endorsements.

I told Adriana flat out I didn't need anything for mentioning FlyORKA.

She still wanted to offer something to you all anyway.

So code studentpilotcast, all one word, gets you 15% off of FlyORKA for 12 months.

She made 50 of them, so it's first come, first served

If this got you thinking about how you debrief your own flights or FlyOrka

has got you curious, reach out to me.

Let me know how you debrief, how you learn from your flights.

Leave a voicemail through the link in the show notes or drop

me a line through the newsletter.

I read every single one.

So as you heard, Adriana told me that ORKA is actually a Swedish verb.

It means having the energy to do something well.

Not just doing it, doing it well, on purpose, over and over.

And that's kind of the whole point of flight training, isn't it?

So here we are, still flying, still learning.

So go a little ORKA this week