SPC#82 – Making a List and Checking it Twice…or Never.

Bill Williams's video recording: Welcome

back SPC listeners and Merry Christmas.

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This one's coming to you on Christmas day.

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So enjoy.

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You ever wonder what that list everyone

talks about around Christmas time is?

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Well, stay with me to find out in episode

82 of the student pilot cast, making

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a list and checking it twice or never.

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So this is a fun one and a topic

that I'm a little passionate about.

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Today's episode is another beyond

the check ride with Kent Shook.

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And we'll be talking about,

you guessed it, checklists.

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Everyone was taught how important

checklists can be, of course.

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But what happens in the real

world beyond the checkride?

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I really do believe that good

checklists and good checklist habits

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for a pilot can be literal lifesavers.

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But what makes a good checklist?

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And how can bad checklists be more

dangerous than no checklist at all?

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Well, one way is to teach a

pilot bad checklist habits, but

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we'll get into some of that here.

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So without further ado, here's the latest

beyond the check ride segment with Kent.

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Bill: All right.

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Welcome back everybody to

another beyond the check ride.

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I'm here again with Kent Shook.

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Are we doing all right, Kent?

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Kent: We're doing great.

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Bill: Awesome.

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Kent: I can talk about flying is a great

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day.

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Bill: Always is.

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All right.

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So we're coming back at you with

another beyond the check ride.

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What have you got for us today?

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Kent: We are going to

talk about checklists.

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Bill: Oh, I love this topic.

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Kent: it's an interesting topic

because there are opinions all

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over the board on this one.

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you know, some people say,

well, I don't need a checklist.

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Some people say you must use a checklist.

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Absolutely.

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Every time some people have

mnemonics that they like to use

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in certain situations instead.

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And, you know, I, I've got to say I've

probably been all of the above at one

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point or another, but, the first time I

really started thinking, A little more

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about checklists and the, the thing that

got me off of being a checklist hater

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was about 14 years ago after I had gotten

my commercial multi, which, know, I

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wasn't planning on ever having a job in

aviation at that point, but I figured,

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you know, You know, if the right thing

comes along, I don't want to have to

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turn it down because I don't have the

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right ratings for it.

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So

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Bill: Plus, more training's

never a bad thing.

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Kent: absolutely, I love to

fly and, you know, getting more

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ratings lets you fly more stuff.

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So, um, anyway, it only took, I guess

it was about a year and a half after I

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got my commercial multi before I had my

first right place, right time situation.

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And I got to fly right seat in a Hawker,

um, get a little jet time in the log book.

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and that was really cool.

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It was a great experience.

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you know, I had to spend a bunch

of time with the PIC on the ground

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beforehand learning about what I was

going to need to do and all that.

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And then, you know, Uh, the flight

itself was only about an hour.

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but one of the things that really made

an impression on me was the checklists in

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that airplane, because I was used to just.

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your standard piston GA checklists.

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And now, uh, the lens of hindsight, I

can see just how bad GA checklists are.

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I mean, they're awful,

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Bill: Yeah,

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Kent: really,

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awful.

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Bill: yep.

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Kent: says we want everybody to use

checklists and To be honest, of all the

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people that I have flown with in, you

know, the outside of the professional

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world, let's say, all the people who are

recreational GA flyers, I think maybe

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only two or three were actually like

legitimate religious checklist users.

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And I think this is why is our

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checklists are terrible.

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Bill: Yeah, it still kind of

shocks me, but it's probably

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because I'm spending so much time

in a training environment lately.

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You know, at flight schools

and things like that.

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Um, but yeah, that's,

that's a little shocking.

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They, they are really bad.

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The things, the things I can't stand

about most GA checklists, especially

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if they follow the, you know,

the old POHs, even the new ones,

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sometimes there's a lot of things in

there that are completely useless.

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And then some things that,

and so it just clutters it up.

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It makes it more difficult to

remember to do them because

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you're not finding value in them.

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You know,

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Kent: Bingo.

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Bill: you're, kind of going through it and

you're like, this is just such a waste and

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then there may be some things and you'll

probably talk about this later, but then

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there's some things that you personally

know you really need on the checklist

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because maybe it's something that you're

having trouble remembering with your

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flows, you know, and you want to make sure

you go back and check those, but it's not

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going to be in a standard GA checklist.

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You know, so, yeah, I know what you mean.

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I mean, some of these checklists,

they're just cluttered.

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They're full of junk.

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They've got things.

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I religiously use them, which means that

I use a checklist maybe 60 percent of the

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time, and I call that religious usage.

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And it's not that I'm trying not to.

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I'm talking about, I try to

use one every phase of flight,

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but I skip a lot of times.

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And so I feel like I'm doing pretty

well if I use it 60 time or 60 percent

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of the time for each phase of flight.

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I'm always doing my flows, but

every once in a while, I'll.

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Get on the ground and if I'm

in a low wing and I'll realize.

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Ooh, I never turned on the, the electric

fuel pump, you know, I accidentally

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skipped it, so I know I need them.

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And so I try to use them all

the time, which means I use them

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about 60 percent of the time.

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Kent: So think of an instance

recently in which you did not use

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a checklist and think about, okay,

why didn't you use the checklist?

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Bill: Um,

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well, I want to say, in an instance, I'm

thinking of right now, a few weeks ago,

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when I, realized that I hadn't done, you

know, I hadn't gone through the checklist.

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This wasn't the time where I had

forgotten to do anything, but I

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realized, oh, man, I didn't do it.

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And the reason I realized I

didn't use it was because, you

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know, I had somebody there.

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It was my son, I had my son with me

and I was going, Oh, man, I should be

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really making sure I use this checklist,

as setting an example, basically, and

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I, I want to say the reason I didn't

use it is because I just forgot I was

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busy with something that I was doing.

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But if I'm honest.

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maybe it was cause I didn't feel

like I needed it at that point.

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Kent: Yep.

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I can totally see that.

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And you know, you just made me think

of a, one of the just most fun flights

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I ever had, not because it was, uh,

you know, something mind boggling,

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but just because it was simple.

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I was up at a grass strip in the

upper peninsula of Michigan, up North.

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was there with a bunch of

friends for Labor Day weekend.

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if they're listening,

they know who you are.

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Hi guys.

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great little fly in and you know, we

basically, we'll go up there and, We'll

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hop on ATVs and drive around in the woods

on old fire trails and stuff like that.

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And it's just a great time.

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But this particular day, you know, it was

toward the end of the day, we had already,

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you know, grilled out for lunch and been

doing all kinds of random up North stuff.

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we were coming out of the woods on

the ATVs approaching the airport.

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And we stopped at an intersection that was

about two blocks away from the airport.

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I mean, that's pretty much across

town in that place, but we all kind

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of looked at the sun, which was

getting low in the Western sky.

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And it was like probably

a half hour till sunset.

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And someone said, what should we do now?

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And kind of look at the

sun and I go, Let's go fly.

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So we all just go over to the

airport and we had just been flying

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before and there's nobody around.

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And there's, I mean, at the time

there wasn't any cell phone signal.

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So like you couldn't call

flight service for a briefing.

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There's no internet.

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You know, this is probably even

before for flight existed anyway.

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but.

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Like I said, we had already been

flying, so no pre flights to

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do, no flight service to call.

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It was literally just

hop in the plane and go.

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so it was just this, you know, calming

thing to just jump in the plane and go.

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and it was just a wonderful flight

because they're Wasn't that much to it.

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It was just super simple.

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And

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you know, when you go down these

checklists, they're just not, they

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make it as complicated as they can.

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I feel like written by

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lawyers and all that, you know,

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Bill: Right.

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Right.

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Kent: I don't know if they're to make

it look cool or if they think that if

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they don't make you check every little

thing five times that they're going to

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be open to liability of some sort or,

you know, a lot of them are step by step

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instructions on how to fly and don't need

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that, know,

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Bill: Yes.

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Kent: coming in as a brand new student,

maybe you need every item on that 172

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checklist, but I would say even um,

handful of flights in, you know, one

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of my examples that I love to, brag on

Cessna about is if you look in a Cessna

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172 pre flight checklist, it says, master,

on, fuel gauges, check, master, off.

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Like how about just

put fuel gauges, check.

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And if they say empty and you looked in

the wing and it was full of fuel, maybe

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go, Oh yeah, those are electric gauges.

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I need to turn the master on for a second.

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So as a result of things like that,

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Um,

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Bill: And

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Kent: the Hawker, I

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Bill: I don't, I don't mean to

interrupt Kent, but I got to ask,

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and how many times do I need to check

that the trim is set for takeoff?

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Kent: 18,

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but no, after flying the Hawker, went

back and I looked at, uh, you know, the

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checklists are all a little different.

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I feel like there were more checklists

before takeoff in the Hawker, but

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they were all just like half a

dozen killer items and that's it.

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And so I went back and looked and, If

you count up all the checklist items

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that you have before the wheels leave the

ground, there's more of them for a Cessna

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172 than there are for a Hawker 800 jet.

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Bill: That's crazy.

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Kent: Yeah, it's, it's utterly stupid.

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FAA, if you're listening, that's why

people don't use checklists when you're

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not looking.

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Bill: Yeah.

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Kent: Um, and of course

that's a detriment to safety.

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you know,

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Bill: Hey, I'm, I'm going

to ask you a question.

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Kent: on those checklists.

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And

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Bill: I'm going to ask you a question,

Kent, um, just to make sure you clarify

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when you say killer items, I don't think

you mean, Oh, these are really cool items.

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So do you want to

explain that a little bit

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Kent: I mean things that will

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literally kill you and,

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Bill: right on?

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Kent: know, things that

might damage the airplane.

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Um, you know, going back through the

POH on my airplane, Which, eh, it's

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a good thing to do now and then.

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I've had this airplane for 12 years

and, there's a lot of stuff in

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there that made me go, huh, okay.

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You know, one of the things that they put

in there that I maybe should check better

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than I do is, to make sure that the gear

switch is down before the master goes on.

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Because my gear is

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electric.

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Bill: Oh, yeah,

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Kent: gear switch is up, I don't

know if the motor is strong enough to

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pull the wheels in,

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Bill: but it's not

going to be good for it.

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Yeah,

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Kent: no, it's definitely

not going to be good for it.

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so yeah, I'm, I'm either going to burn

out a motor and pop a breaker or I'm

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going to drop the airplane on the ground.

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now I've probably gotten complacent

about that because there are

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Two people who fly my airplane.

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And so, we're also both very similar

in how we approach flying and such.

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And I, I able to trust that, my co

owner in the airplane is not going

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to leave the gear switch up, but.

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let's say, you know, there was just an

event at an airport near here last week.

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hello to everyone in the

only one a key in the world.

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they have a great breakfast and

like airport community day there.

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And so they have all kinds of kids who

are wanting to sit in airplanes and stuff.

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And, you know, we used to always take

the club airplanes over there and let

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the kids crawl around and all that.

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Well, okay.

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After something like that, Well,

yeah, you'd best be sure all the

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switches are where you want them

to be before you do anything.

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anyway, so

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now that we have, almost 15 minutes

talking about how bad checklists

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are, let's kind of move on to

how can we make them better.

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and I do want to talk about a couple

of things that make them easier to use.

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Eventually, once you get past the

setup phase, our friends of ForeFlight

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have checklists in their product.

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you can have ForeFlight read

you your checklists, which

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it just does at pace you set.

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but I got to admit that what inspired

me to dive back into checklists

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here is a new product, relatively

new product anyway, called goose,

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which is billed as your AI co pilot.

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they were at Oshkosh this year.

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They sponsored an entire exhibit

hanger and I got to admit that's the

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first time I've ever seen an exhibit

hanger sponsored by a company I've

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never heard of before.

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Bill: yeah, right.

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Yeah.

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Kent: Um,

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Bill: Very interesting product.

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Yeah.

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Kent: So they had their, you know,

they got the booth right inside

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the door for sponsoring the hanger.

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And you know, I went over there and

checked it out and it's pretty darn cool.

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you can set your checklists up in

there among other things that actually

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does more than just checklists.

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But,

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you can set it up so that,

it will wait for you.

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this is kind of the default, I think where

it will read you a checklist item and

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then you say either check or skip, or you

can even say go back and it'll go back to

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the previous one and that sort of thing.

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But, you know, just by doing actual

voice response, I feel like it

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has a kind of a new dimension.

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over some of the other app

based checklist products.

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And,

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it

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Bill: My understanding is.

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it

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can, alert you that it's time to

run a checklist at certain phases

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of flights as, as time goes on.

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During certain phases of flight as well,

which is pretty interesting for not

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forgetting or moving over a checklist.

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Kent: yeah.

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that part I haven't gotten into yet.

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I know that it can set

timers, for example.

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So maybe at the end of your, before

takeoff checklist, will start

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a timer for a minute or two and

then say, Hey, do you want to do

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your after takeoff checklist now?

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And that sort of thing.

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I don't know if it lets you do

stuff based on climb and descent

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and all that sort of thing, but,

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Bill: It, it does it, it can, I don't

know if it has that feature yet.

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I haven't dived in enough,

but it does do it based on

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distance from your destination.

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Kent: uh, cool.

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Bill: So as you're approaching

your airport, maybe you have

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it set to remind you to do your

pre 10 miles out, for example.

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Kent: Yeah.

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Yeah, that's reason that maybe some

other people want to get back into

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checklists as well and think about,

how their checklists are built.

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I think that checklists are

something that are at least

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somewhat unique to an individual,

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um,

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Bill: I agree.

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Kent: you know.

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They are written for airplanes, but

there are probably some things that,

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you know, maybe you're more prone to

forgetting than I am or vice versa.

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And so, you know, the first thing,

the first time I forget something,

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well, it needs to go on a checklist.

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Right.

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Um,

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so how do we build checklists?

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Um, I'm going to say that.

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I, uh, you know, we mentioned

the difference between, um, 172.

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I'm going to give you a

before and after so far for my

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checklist project on the Mooney.

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up to the point where the wheels leave the

ground, The POH has 173 checklist items,

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kind of a lot, right?

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Bill: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's a lot.

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Kent: after it down to 74 and that

does, both of those do include

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the entire preflight inspection.

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So, but for example, factory checklist

has 74 items on the preflight.

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Mine has 34, you know, their before

start checklist has 26 items.

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Mine has eight.

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I actually will be adding more

to this after I finished going

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through everything on the factory

checklist and thinking through it.

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But

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given those

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Bill: You'll be adding

those personal items.

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The things that you are,

you know, that you need

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Kent: Yeah.

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And really, the main thing there is one

of the categories I actually wanted to

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talk about, which is procedural items.

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So all these checklists that were written

by lawyers, as we like to say, they have

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everything you need to know about the

airplane and they don't cover everything.

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anything else.

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So for example, well, like the Mooney

does talk about the radios being set.

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That's kind of an old checklist, right?

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Really we ought to be talking

about the flight plan being

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entered into the GPS these days,

as well as the radios being set.

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but you know, when you're making an IFR

flight, there are additional procedural

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things that you need to make sure that

you do that, you know, they're not

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going to kill you on a VFR flight.

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But they might kill you on an IFR flight.

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might be able to get away with it without

a takeoff briefing on a VFR flight, but if

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you blast off into the clouds and go, what

was my obstacle departure procedure again?

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Yeah, you might be in the side

of a mountain before you are

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able to go back and fix that.

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So,

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that sort of thing

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Bill: really good point.

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Kent: on GA checklists.

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And as a result, I, I'm sitting

here talking about they're

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not, or they're being too much.

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On the checklists.

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Most of the time, that's true

of the normal checklists.

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I found the opposite is true

of the emergency checklists.

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Some airplanes, when you look at the

emergency checklist engine failure in a

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single, for example, they start talking

about setting the mixture to rich and

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switching fuel tanks and, you know,

and do a different mag or whatever.

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And the first thing ought to be,

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Air speed.

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Bill: Pitch pitch for best glide.

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Yes.

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Kent: Yes.

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Bill: And that's

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Kent: thing should be find

where you're going to land

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and turn that way.

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Bill: exactly totally agree.

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And,

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Kent: looking at the airplane.

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Bill: and, and by the way, I want to

add, Especially for new pilots, if you

375

haven't thought about this, pitch for

best glide is almost always going to be a

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pull unless you happen to be on takeoff.

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Kent: Yeah.

378

Yeah.

379

Unless you're

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climbing.

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Bill: And you might as well, if you're

in cruise and you're starting to lose

382

your engine, you might as well take

that altitude when you can get it.

383

So,

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Kent: And of course, trim for it

right away, or you're not going to be

385

keeping it for very long.

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Bill: yep,

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Kent: one hint I've heard is that most

airplanes it's pretty close to all the way

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nose up trim

389

Bill: yep.

390

Most air, most GA or, you

know, piston airplanes.

391

Yeah, it'll be almost all the way back.

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Kent: so yeah, there are

definitely some, some opportunities

393

to flush some things out.

394

and especially on emergency

checklists, you know, you're

395

already going to have a startle or

flight kind of response going on.

396

And so you, Absolutely do not want to

skip something important, and that's

397

why you really do need to kind of add

things to the emergency checklist,

398

even if they might seem fairly obvious,

you know, you don't want to make the

399

checklist ridiculously long, but you

do want to be sure that those things

400

that were just talked about, you know,

that aren't necessarily related to

401

airplane systems are taken care of

generally those are the most important.

402

so let's see, I guess, my overall

method for doing this is to

403

start with the factory checklist.

404

Don't just start from scratch.

405

Bill: Yeah, there could be some

things on there that are, that

406

are killer items and you want to

make sure that those make it on.

407

Kent: checklists are

written how they are for

408

I think that there are some better

reasons sometimes to change how they work.

409

one thing that I have done quite

a bit of to get my item count down

410

is just to combine things are right

next to each other, for example.

411

you know, at one point, I think my

checklist says to turn the master on and

412

then it says to turn the alternator field

on and then it says avionics master.

413

And you know, it's doing things

that are right next to each other.

414

so what I'm going to do is I'm going

to say, Masters on that makes sure

415

that I covered all three of them, but

it makes it so that I only have one

416

checklist item

417

Bill: right

418

Kent: right next to each other.

419

So it's not like I have to look around

for anything, to know that that item is

420

complete.

421

Bill: Yeah.

422

Kent: You know, same thing.

423

I have three items for seats, seat

belts, and shoulder harnesses.

424

Well, I go back to the checklist

that we used in the TBM.

425

Seats, adjusted and belted.

426

You covered all three of

those things in a single item.

427

Um,

428

another one that,

429

Bill: Going, Going, back to how

bad these checklists can be.

430

that's one of my pet peeves when

there's a bunch of things that the

431

seats, seat belts, shoulder harnesses,

I cannot stand that on a checklist,

432

especially when they're, when they're

all, you know, separate items.

433

These are why we skip things.

434

Because there's too many, and you're,

you're looking down, you're glancing,

435

and you're going, yeah, yeah, yeah, I,

I know these all three are together,

436

you're moving down, and then you may

skip one, that's actually a killer item,

437

that's after those, because there's just

too many, and I know we're harping on

438

that, but I love, I love where you're

going with this, because if we made these

439

checklists more useful, yeah, We would use

them more and use them more effectively.

440

So I love this.

441

Yeah.

442

Perfect example.

443

Kent: And some people might think,

Oh, well, you know, going and making

444

your own checklists isn't safe.

445

Well,

446

I disagree.

447

A, it

448

Bill: I do too.

449

Kent: everything.

450

B, it makes it more likely that

you're actually going to use your

451

checklists.

452

And, you

453

Bill: and does everybody

454

Kent: checklists, I mean, those

172 checklists are tiny print.

455

Because there's a billion

different things on him.

456

Well, you know, when I first

started making my own checklists,

457

I did it with some help from my

CF double I and I was able to, you

458

know, format everything myself.

459

I got the whole thing basically

onto two sides of a single sheet

460

of eight and a half by 11 paper.

461

and things were printed probably double

the size that they are in a 172 POH.

462

So it makes

463

Bill: for my,

464

Kent: that you'll miss

465

individual items as

466

Bill: yeah, for the planes I fly,

I try to get them on both sides of

467

a half sheet and then I laminate

them when I'm using paper checklist.

468

they might not be as large as yours were.

469

but they're large enough for me to read

because I've got old eyes these days.

470

But, I, I, the other reason

not to use a checklist is it's

471

hard to handle in the cockpit.

472

I'll give you an example.

473

A lot of times people will use

these checklists that are like tri

474

fold, you know, checklists so they

fit in the pocket or whatever.

475

But then you're like, Turning

pages, basically, and trying to find

476

the right spot on the checklist.

477

I want something, if I'm using an eboard,

I want something that'll I can stash

478

somewhere and pull out, hold it up and

use it without having to fumble around

479

with two hands, you know what I mean?

480

And so those kinds of

things drive me nuts too.

481

So just to add like kind of the physical,

I know that we were talking a little

482

earlier about using electronic checklist.

483

We talked about goose.

484

We talked about for flight.

485

There's others also, and I've started

experimenting with using more,

486

electronic checklists to see how that

fits into my flows and see how that

487

fits into the way that I'm flying.

488

I think the dimension of

having goose talk to you.

489

Could be a really good way to go.

490

but however you do it, that's not

really what we're focusing on here.

491

It's not really the important thing.

492

The important thing is what's on the

checklist so that we're using it.

493

And is it easy to use?

494

Whatever it may be.

495

If it's

496

a laminated card or if it's an

electronic, whatever it is, it

497

has to be easy for you to use.

498

So you'll use it.

499

Kent: Yeah.

500

And what I did when I, was first

doing my, edited checklists on

501

paper I'd print it on one side.

502

I would have one sheet, a full

eight and a half by 11 that I would

503

fold in half

504

Bill: Yes.

505

Kent: into the IFR flight file thing that

you could buy from Sporty's that held.

506

paper approach plates back

when we use those two.

507

So it was effectively a half sheet,

both sides for all my normal procedures

508

and another half sheet, both sides for

509

all the emergency procedures

510

Bill: Love it.

511

Kent: work great.

512

you know, I.

513

was showing you the TBM checklists

we were using before, earlier, and

514

those were printed on half sheets.

515

Laminated and then one hole punched in the

corner and we just have a little little

516

binder ring And so all the checklists

were just on in a little packet on this

517

ring And we just slap them right in

between the glare shield and the a pillar.

518

So they were always right

there made it super easy and

519

then, you know, as we kind of went

through the flight, you'd just through the

520

checklists and you were always right there

521

ready for the next one.

522

Bill: Yep.

523

I usually.

524

Kent: there's a million ways

to use them and to format them.

525

And, you know, when I finished this

process, I probably will put them

526

in goose and for flight and on Mike

Garmin, seven 50 and print them

527

out,

528

Bill: Yes, I was just going to say when

you were talking about stashing them

529

on the A pillar, mine and basically

any airplane I'm flying is being

530

stashed between, you know, the glare

shield and the, and the, the windscreen

531

and, you know, off to the right.

532

Cause I'm flying right

seat now all the time.

533

So it's always off to

the right, right there.

534

Always easy for me to grab.

535

That's the.

536

Thing I'm scared about the most

if I transition to electronic.

537

but like you, I've started thinking,

well, why not just have a paper one too?

538

And I'll just have it stashed

where I always know what it's at.

539

And I can always pull that out and use it.

540

no matter what, if I don't want to take

the extra, you know, couple seconds to get

541

to it on whatever device I've got it on

542

Kent: And it is worth

saying, know, we're pilots.

543

We like to

544

have backups for everything,

545

Bill: and true.

546

True.

547

Yep.

548

Kent: you know, paper

checklists blow out the window.

549

So they're not the only thing that,

you know, I'm sure there are some

550

people who would be like, or you

551

should use paper, but,

552

Bill: Okay.

553

I, I know,

554

Kent: a backup for everything.

555

Even your paper.

556

Bill: I know we're going long,

but I have to tell the story

557

because of what you just said.

558

so.

559

When I started a few months back

when I started my transition

560

training to the right seat, my very

first flight in the right seat,

561

you'll never guess what happened.

562

I was flying a piper.

563

So low wing.

564

It was an archer and it's hot.

565

It's middle of the summer.

566

So we always start the airplane

with the doors open in the

567

window open and everything.

568

And one thing I'd never had to deal with.

569

Was the checklist flying out the

door and what happened the very first

570

time I flew from the right seat.

571

I started the engine with

the checklist on my lap.

572

Kent: Bye

573

Bill: bye.

574

bye.

575

So yeah, I got that engine started, went,

I think the checklist just flew out.

576

And so had to shut down, get

unstrapped, move the seat back, get

577

out of the airplane, go find it.

578

It had blown under another

airplane, you know, about.

579

30 yards behind and, grab it,

bring it back to the airplane and

580

start the procedure all over again.

581

So I had to say that, yes, they

sometimes blow out the windows.

582

Sometimes your iPad loses its

battery or overheats, whatever.

583

So yes, backups are a good idea.

584

I agree.

585

Kent: Excellent.

586

Well, let's kind of continue

with, how we build these things.

587

like I said, we're going to

start with factory checklist and

588

literally go through every item

and say, okay, why is this here?

589

Should it be somewhere else?

590

Should it be here?

591

At all.

592

Should it be combined with something else?

593

So,

594

you know, I don't know if we're going

to actually use video here, but let me

595

share my other screen with you here.

596

So on the left is my factory POH on

the right is my Personal checklist.

597

I basically am writing up this

whole document with what I am doing

598

and taking notes and all that.

599

So, let me start here with

my before start checklist.

600

Basically, I've color coded things here.

601

So if something is still black,

it's as it is from the factory.

602

If it's red, it means I eliminated it.

603

If it's orange, it means I

have moved it somewhere else.

604

And if it's green, it means I

moved it from somewhere else.

605

and then if it's something

that I just added, it's blue.

606

So if you look at this, you can

see there's not a whole lot of

607

black here.

608

Bill: All right.

609

Right.

610

Kent: like, for example, right

here is that masters thing.

611

So they said, master off,

alternator off, avionics master off.

612

just changed that to masters

off, or masters three

613

off, rather.

614

Bill: Right.

615

Kent: just because of how I formatted

it right there, but, this is just notes.

616

This is not my actual checklist.

617

I'm going to, you know, enter this

into goose and all the other places,

618

but this is just me keeping track of

what I'm doing, in terms of what's

619

different from the factory checklist.

620

So now you can see, okay, right below that

alternator and avionics master have been

621

moved away because they're combined into

masters and then boost pump switches off.

622

Well, at that and went, okay, there's

not a real good reason why they would

623

ever be on at this point anyway.

624

And if they are on, what happens?

625

the negative effect?

626

You

627

Bill: Yeah.

628

Nothing.

629

Kent: on.

630

I hear the pump.

631

I go, well, that's weird.

632

I turned the pump off.

633

It's not going to hurt the airplane.

634

It's not going to hurt me.

635

Get rid of it.

636

Next thing.

637

Directional gyro slave.

638

Okay.

639

Slave DHSI.

640

We never take that thing

out of slaving mode.

641

And like, if we had to, it would

probably be going to the avionics shop.

642

So, that one.

643

Okay.

644

Well, I'm going to take care of

that in the instrument checks.

645

instead of instruments check or

something like that, later on, like

646

during taxi, I'm going to say, okay, HSI

slaved, moving, matching the compass.

647

you can see a lot of these, are moved

to interior pre flight because, you

648

know, I was thinking about these

in terms of, If I'm going flying

649

on a summer day, do I need to be

doing this sitting in the cockpit

650

sweating or can I do it

651

Bill: Right.

652

Kent: flight inspection?

653

you know, before my passengers

show up and all that kind of stuff.

654

So you'll see there's some things

I moved to the interior pre flight.

655

There's some things I moved

to the engine start checklist.

656

there's some things that

like rocker switches all off.

657

Again, what's the consequence here?

658

I want to leave my elevator trim switch

on all the time, unless I have a runaway

659

trim scenario, because I've had to

replace that switch and it was 325.

660

So there is no reason to be switching

that on and off every time when

661

that is an item that pretty much is

662

always going to be on,

663

Bill: Mm hmm.

664

Kent: boost pump.

665

We talked about, pedo heat.

666

I will have checked on

the pre flight elsewhere.

667

really there's no reason for me to

go through and turn all those off.

668

They're either already off or they have no

669

effect anyway.

670

So got

671

Bill: Right.

672

Kent: flaps up again,

this is before start.

673

The only consequential thing

with the flaps is that I get

674

them into the takeoff position

675

prior to takeoff.

676

Bill: Yeah.

677

So put them on the pre takeoff checklist.

678

Kent: exactly.

679

And they were already there, which

680

is, you know, that's one reason

681

Bill: Right.

682

Kent: 173 items

683

Bill: Exactly.

684

Kent: Um, because for example, I'll have

to go and find the, pre takeoff checklists

685

here.

686

Bill: are are the, are the lawyers

back when that POH was printed, are

687

they afraid that you might get a stiff

wind and if the flaps are down, you

688

might take off while you're taxing?

689

I mean, seriously, what

are they worried about?

690

Kent: a lot of stuff

that just makes no sense.

691

But if you look on the left side of the

screen, about halfway down here is where

692

their before takeoff checklist starts.

693

And if you go through and pass all these

notes and everything, and then they have

694

this takeoff checklist, they're basically

having you recheck almost everything

695

Bill: Yeah.

696

Kent: takeoff checklist.

697

so, Yeah.

698

Yeah.

699

Unless it's going to kill you, there's

no reason to check it more than once.

700

So anyway, the other thing

that we want to get rid of is

701

what I'm calling to fly items

702

and do list

703

items.

704

there's a few more of those later

on, but like if we look at engine

705

start checklist, I think has some.

706

Oh, like they say low boost on, well,

eh, that depends on the type of start.

707

You know, if it's a flooded start or

a hot start, you're not doing that.

708

so pretty much I have prop

clear and engine start there

709

after a few other things.

710

But you know,

711

if you look

712

Bill: The how to fly thing.

713

I gotta tell you,

714

Kent: mixture, master, how about

power levers set for start?

715

Done.

716

Engine.

717

Prime.

718

That covers all the, you know,

boost pump and power levers and all

719

that as well lets you edit in your

head what's going on because, okay,

720

let's say I'm doing a hot start.

721

Well, this is all different.

722

Mooney put it all in a separate checklist.

723

but that checklist doesn't

have all the items on it.

724

So you actually have to do both checklists

and then you're skipping items on one.

725

that's just not a good practice anyway.

726

So that it just makes no

727

sense at all.

728

So

729

Bill: I gotta say.

730

Kent: stuff we get rid of

731

Bill: Yeah, I gotta say when you said the

how to fly stuff, it, it kind of cracked

732

me up a little bit because while I've

been experimenting with these electronic

733

checklists, I'm bringing in these default

checklists in ForeFlight, that come

734

from the POHs and, and I pulled one in.

735

I don't even remember which one

it was, maybe for a 172 and it

736

had a takeoff checklist and it

had things on it like full power,

737

rotate at 60.

738

You know, and I'm just dying,

like, are you kidding me?

739

Like, if you're using a checklist

while you're on the takeoff

740

roll, you're in serious trouble.

741

Kent: Yes.

742

Bill: So, yeah, crazy.

743

Kent: right there on the left hand

side of my screen, again, take off

744

powerful throttle enunciators, check

engine instruments, check for proper

745

indications, lift off climb speed as,

as specified in section five, landing

746

gear, retract and climb wing flaps up.

747

Like what

748

Bill: is not a good checklist.

749

Yes, that,

750

Kent: is

751

Bill: that is a,

752

that is a how to,

753

not a checklist.

754

Kent: Now I want you to

take note of one thing here.

755

The factory checklist jumps straight

from before takeoff to takeoff to climb.

756

And if you look over on the right

hand side, you can see I have an

757

entire checklist here that I've added.

758

actually, it wasn't even that one.

759

I might have two now that I look at it.

760

Yeah, I haven't colored this yet.

761

So I have an after start checklist that is

separate from the before taxi checklist.

762

I also have an after takeoff checklist.

763

now a small GA airplane after

takeoff and climb could be combined.

764

and that's, you know, the, the factory

checklist has a climb checklist.

765

It's missing a bunch of stuff

in my opinion, but it's there.

766

but the reason for after start is

that these are a few things that

767

really ought to be done right away.

768

Okay.

769

after the engine is started rather

than, you know, starting the engine

770

and then kind of getting distracted

with putting the flight plan into the

771

GPS and talking to your passengers

about what's happening next and this

772

and that and the other things.

773

So

774

Bill: I, I feel the same way, Kent, and,

so some of the checklists I've used have

775

an after, you know, have an after start.

776

what I did when I was making my

own checklist is I made the engine

777

start checklist include those items.

778

After starting the engine.

779

so yeah, same thing.

780

Just make sure you finish a checklist

or do that next checklist before

781

you move on to other things.

782

Cause yes, there are things that you

want to do right after the engine starts.

783

Totally agree.

784

Kent: definitely.

785

So yeah, stuff like to make sure you have

oil pressure, your alternators on and

786

charging, you know, your mixtures leaned

so you're not following your spark plugs.

787

that sort of stuff, you know, that should

be done immediately after the engine is

788

started, because you know, if you don't

have oil pressure, you got to get that

789

thing shut down before you damage it.

790

and then you can get into

all of the other stuff.

791

you know, really kind of

getting ready for the flight.

792

And then when you're ready to taxi

or you feel like you're ready to

793

taxi, then you do the before taxi

794

checklist.

795

So,

796

Bill: Totally agree.

797

Kent: and then stuff for, takeoff

798

here again.

799

Bill: I want to point I want to point

something out that we touched on earlier,

800

and you'll probably talk about later,

but this is a really good example.

801

So I don't want to give up

the opportunity for for me.

802

I like to instead of

having an extra checklist.

803

I like to add those items on to the.

804

Engine start checklist.

805

Kent may want to have a separate

checklist that he does right

806

away called the after takeoff.

807

I'm sorry.

808

The after engine start checklist.

809

this is what we were talking about before

when we, when we said that it's really

810

good to create these for yourself because.

811

We may have different,

standard operating procedures.

812

We may, think about things

slightly differently.

813

And I don't mean just Kent and

myself, but every one of us as pilots.

814

And so make these checklists match

how it's going to work effectively

815

for you because they're for you.

816

So I just wanted to point that out, that

we may all do these things a little bit

817

differently, and that's totally fine.

818

Make it work for you.

819

Kent: Yeah.

820

one thing to note on that

though, is that if you're looking

821

toward a career in aviation,

822

Bill: Good point.

823

Kent: you're not going to be able to

make your own checklists in a Boeing

824

seven 37 at Southwest airlines.

825

Those will be made for you.

826

and you know, we'll probably talk

about standard operating procedures at

827

some point, but, any reasonably sized

carrier, whether it's one 35 or one

828

21 is going to have standard operating

procedures so that, you know, you can

829

hop in a cockpit with

830

Bill: does it the same way.

831

Kent: And right, everybody does it the

same way and everybody's on the same page.

832

you know, that's a, that's a

huge, huge boon to safety for

833

everybody to be doing it the

834

same way.

835

Bill: That is an excellent call out.

836

yep.

837

What I was referring to was for GA,

but that is an excellent call out.

838

Yep.

839

Sometimes you'll be in a situation

where there's an SOP and that's

840

what you'll be following.

841

Kent: right, what I want to say is

I, I'm not disagreeing with you here.

842

However, in the case that you have,

let's say, a place that you want to work

843

and you can get checklists from them.

844

You know, if you have a friend

that flies there or something

845

like that, what they have.

846

Because one thing, you know, we kind

of talked about goose automatically

847

alerting you before, but if you

can get into good habits right away

848

anyway, think about, okay, it's after

takeoff, I have a checklist to run

849

or I'm climbing through 10, 000 feet.

850

I have a checklist to run,

all that sort of thing.

851

That can really be

helpful to you later on.

852

and, You know, that's, that's

another, reason I had started,

853

looking at this a few years ago, too.

854

Last time I kind of went

through this process was, I'm

855

flying a Mooney on my own.

856

I'm flying a TBM in a

professional crew environment.

857

I want to make those two things

as similar to each other as I

858

can, so that they're reinforcing

good habits in both directions.

859

Bill: Excellent point.

860

Kent: If that is your situation, it's

worth trying to, you know, things

861

similarly, just so that you get

into good habits right off the bat.

862

I realize that's going to be

pretty difficult for a lot of

863

people because, you know, you may

not know where you're going to go

864

eventually, where you want to go yet,

865

But if you're in a situation where

you have that luxury, or if you're

866

already doing some professional flying

as well as some GA flying, you know,

867

it's worth trying to make those things

as similar as you can make them.

868

So, all that said,

869

it's worth, moving things

around a little bit.

870

have seen some checklists where

if you follow the order that's

871

on the checklist, it just has

you bouncing all over the place.

872

really good checklists, will

follow a flow and you can do the

873

flow before you do the checklist.

874

you know, in the TBM, we called

it the inverted C because we

875

basically went across the overhead

panel down the middle, and then.

876

Back to the left.

877

kind of made things real easy.

878

you know, if you have to jump all over

the place, it's going to slow you down.

879

And checklists taking longer is one

reason why some people don't use them.

880

So, you know, we're basically

trying to take away all those

881

barriers to people using checklists.

882

So make them make sense.

883

you know, Think about why something

might have been put in a particular

884

place and why it's there and how moving

might affect other checklist items, but

885

in a lot of cases, you're going to find,

okay, well, there's really no reason

886

not to move this item in between these

other two so that I can just kind of.

887

things off in an order

that makes more sense.

888

example of that for, Mooney

is like many airplanes.

889

The pre flight checklist you starting at

a particular point on the airplane and

890

then going around the whole airplane.

891

Well,

892

a do list.

893

Bill: Yep.

894

Kent: what I did was.

895

when I made it into a checklist

is I kind of kind of did it.

896

So it was tail forward.

897

I'm not putting separate

items in for right wing and

898

left wing and all that stuff.

899

So, example, I have a static port

on both sides of the airplane.

900

I need to check both static ports,

but I don't need two separate

901

checklist items for that static

902

Bill: Right.

903

Kent: checked done.

904

so I just kind of went tail to nose,

makes sense with the way my airplane is

905

in the hangar and how I would go back

and check something if I had missed it.

906

so I think we mentioned this already,

but anytime you forget something on a

907

flight, probably worth adding to your

checklist, even if it only happens once.

908

Bill: So I've got a

909

Kent: some

910

Bill: I've got a question.

911

Kent: stuff.

912

Bill: I've got a question for you, Kent.

913

you know, going back to that to do

list for a pre flight checklist.

914

And obviously I'm, I spend

some time flying in a, in a

915

flight school environment and.

916

Once I can get a DPE to do my check

ride, I'll probably be spending more

917

time flying in a, in a flight, you

know, in a learning environment.

918

I've been kicking around the idea.

919

and I'm, I'm just sort of, running

this by you to see what you think.

920

We haven't talked about this before,

but I've been kicking around the

921

idea of having a separate sheet of

paper that is a pre flight, you know,

922

interior and exterior to do list that.

923

My students could learn how to do it

with, but I love the idea of not having

924

that stuff in order on the checklist

like you were just talking about.

925

it's one of the biggest

checklists there is.

926

One of the biggest sections of

the checklist is the pre flight,

927

Kent: yeah,

928

Bill: because there's a lot of

things to hit and it's the one

929

part of even my checklist that

I feel like are to do lists.

930

And we want to stay away from to

do lists on a checklist, right?

931

I find myself not really using it.

932

I carry it around with me.

933

When I'm doing the pre flight, but I've

got a flow for the pre flight, and then

934

afterwards, I kind of run my finger down

very quickly just to try and make sure

935

I didn't miss anything, but doing that's

very difficult when there's so many items.

936

So, I'm kicking around this

idea of having a separate sheet.

937

It's not part of the checklist.

938

That's a to do list for a pre flight,

having them kind of learn with that,

939

and then check the most critical

items on the checklist when they're

940

done to make sure that those things

got done, and then pretty soon they

941

won't even need that to do list.

942

You know,

943

Kent: right.

944

Bill: what, what do

you think of that idea?

945

Kent: I think it's a great idea.

946

And, you know, like we've already

said, checklists can be different for

947

different people.

948

And

949

Bill: Mm hmm.

950

Kent: expand on that to say,

checklists can be different for the

951

same person at different times in

952

their flying career.

953

You

954

Bill: Mm.

955

Kent: a hundred percent appropriate

for somebody to have a checklist for

956

preflight that has Every single thing on

it in order as you go around the entire

957

airplane and repeat stuff from the left

wing on the right wing and, you know,

958

all that sort of thing, because they're

going to need that initially, you know,

959

after a certain number of flights and

they have that down, maybe they can move

960

on to something that's more of a the box.

961

And yes, I checked all those things in all

of the places they exist on the airplane

962

without having to do it all

963

Bill: Exactly.

964

Kent: what?

965

Maybe if that person doesn't

fly for a while, they go

966

back to the lengthy procedure

967

Bill: The to do list.

968

Yep.

969

Kent: And, you know, a lot of this,

especially in something like a

970

172 that's designed as a trainer,

that's why they have all these how

971

to fly items and

972

Bill: That's right.

973

Kent: list items and all that, because

it really is kind of an instruction

974

manual for how to fly an airplane in

general, but you don't need that forever.

975

so I think, you know,

976

student

977

Bill: and I,

978

Kent: for the

979

Bill: and I don't,

980

Kent: probably go with

just what's in the book.

981

And then maybe once they have their

private and they're starting to work

982

on their instrument, that's when

they kind of knock off some of those

983

things that are feeling obvious

984

to them at that point.

985

Bill: yeah,

986

Kent: as long as it's

987

not a killer item,

988

Bill: some of those items.

989

Kent: some of those things that are

IFR or procedural items as they move

990

into their instrument training.

991

Bill: Yeah, but some of those

items I don't think belong on a

992

checklist, even for a brand new

student, because you're not going

993

to be using a checklist like that.

994

So, so, you know, these are things

that they should study and that they

995

should get familiar with and practice

and again, maybe have a separate sheet.

996

It's like a cheat sheet, like, okay,

this is what a takeoff looks like or

997

whatever it may be, but it probably

still doesn't rotate at 55 knots.

998

That doesn't belong on

a, on a checklist ever.

999

You're never going to be looking

at a checklist when you rotate.

So

Kent: If

Bill: yeah.

Kent: on a checklist, it belongs and the

before

Bill: Briefing in the briefing.

Kent: takeoff briefing.

Bill: Exactly.

Exactly.

Yep.

All right.

All right.

We're on the same page.

So yeah, something I've

been thinking about lately.

So I wanted to run it by you.

Kent: Yeah.

yeah, that's kind of my last

bit is to add, you know, good

practice procedures like briefing.

I don't think I've ever actually seen

that on an airline or an airplane.

Checklist.

you know, what are you going

to do if your engine fails?

so that's, that's something that, even

in the TBM, it may be a fancy turbine

airplane, but it's still a single.

And so I would always brief, okay, which

way am I turning if I'm high enough

to try and turn back to the airport?

you know, which way is

the wind coming from?

Where are the, roadways

and fields and stuff.

You know, I would actually zoom in on

the satellite view in for flight and

look around the airport a little bit

and go, okay, it's all trees to the

left, but there's a highway over to

the right that we can make it to if

we're above, you know, 400 feet off

the ground or something like that.

Adding things in like that is great.

of the nice features goose

has is it lets you put tags on

checklist items and filter them.

So if something is only relevant to an

IFR flight, can actually filter out all

the IFR items when you go on a VFR flight.

you know, we could

Bill: That is very interesting.

Kent: whether that's

actually a good idea or not,

Bill: Right, right.

That is an interesting concept.

Kent: in the TBM, you know, we always

kept the checklist exactly the same, but.

Uh, we actually did have separate

checklists for night currency when

we were just going to be staying

in the pattern because so many

items on the regular checklist were

irrelevant on a flight like that.

It was completely different than

an operational flight would be.

But, you know, certain things

are still different on a quick,

short VFR repositioning flight.

That's part 91 compared to, okay,

now we're going somewhere with a

plane full of passengers, part 135.

So,

Bill: right.

right.

Kent: you know, whether you say

irrelevant or you just use a feature

in the software to skip over it,

um, doesn't really matter, but

something to think about as well.

Bill: Yeah.

There is something to be said,

always doing it the same way, right.

Kent: yep.

Bill: Excellent.

Kent: Well, I

Bill: Well,

Kent: pretty much,

beat this one to death, huh?

Bill: for sure.

Yeah, this is good stuff.

This is really good stuff.

Kent: It's, it's time to run the podcast

shutdown checklist.

Bill: All right, let

me pull that out here.

Yeah, so that is, that is good stuff.

And I think this is a really good,

segue into checklist for somebody

who's just beyond the check ride.

because you've been flying

with somebody else's checklist.

Most likely you've been flying

with a flight school or, a, an

instructor's checklist and you're

going to start flying on your own.

It's good to be thinking about these

things and thinking, you know, how

am I going to be able to try and do

this the same way every time and use

these checklists to keep myself safe,

get these killer items completed.

And, so can't, I really appreciate

you covering this topic so well,

especially because you've got a lot

of even recent personal experience

going through your Mooney checklist.

And then of course your

professional flying experience,

it's really helpful as well.

So really appreciate you doing this.

Any last ideas or concepts

on checklists before we,

Kent: Well, I was going to say that

there may be some DPEs out there.

who are not okay with you using

checklists you made yourself.

if they're good, I would hope that you

could still have a discussion with them

and say, here's how I made the checklist.

And I started with the factory checklist.

I've added things on,

Bill: I've combined items, yeah,

Kent: right.

And you know, for what it's worth, the,

checklists that we used, flying the

TBMs, are not the factory checklists.

They are checklists that we

made that the FAA then approved.

and I think they may have had to

have all of the items from the

factory checklists in them, but

we definitely added a bunch of our

own as

Bill: and maybe moved them around

a little bit to match your,

you know, SOP and all of that, you know,

Kent: at least a little bit of precedent.

Within the FAA for not using factory

checklists because they do approve

operators checklists as well.

So Hopefully you can have a discussion

with an examiner and say hey, look,

yes, this is not the factory checklist.

However, you know, this is

This is how I did it.

And this is how I covered all the bases.

And hopefully there'll be cool with that.

That's not a conversation that I would

start, but if

they asked about the checklists I

was using, know, I would, I would

hope that they would still let

you use those.

But,

Bill: And when you're flying somebody

else's, when you're flying somebody

else's airplane, you might want to

check with them too to make sure

that they're okay with the checklist

you're using, just to make sure that

it is covering all the things that's

going to protect the airplane itself.

But, um,

and that would include the reason I

bring that up is that would include,

for instance, a flight school.

so while I did make my own checklist

while I've been in, all the flight

schools I've been in, I made sure to

include all the items they had on theirs.

I would just kind of rearrange

or reorganize or combine.

But I did that out of respect for a

these, you know, these are your airplanes.

I'm going to make sure that all

of these things are on here.

your standard operating procedures,

you know, I mean, I'm going to

follow what you want us to do.

when you're flying for yourself,

even in a club or you own your own

airplane or anything like that,

you have a little bit more leeway.

Kent: Yeah.

And you know, for what it's worth,

I created checklists for the diamond

star when the club purchased it.

Okay.

And it was mostly just taking the POH

checklist and adding the eight airplane

flight manual supplements for various

equipment that was installed on it

and combining them all because that's

something that is easily forgotten.

You know, if you don't go and check,

okay, how many AFMSs are in the actual

physical POH for this airplane, you

know, that's, those are important too.

Bill: Good point.

All right.

Well, thanks again, Kent.

Great topic.

I'm sure that, listeners and

viewers will have lots of their

own opinions, so let's hear them.

You can always reach out to us and you

can reach me at bill at studentpilotcast.

com and, a bunch of other

ways as well on social media.

So definitely reach out, comment, whatever

you need to do, get it off your chest.

We want to hear it.

We love to hear feedback and we love

to hear ideas from other pilots.

So bring it.

So Kent, until next time, thanks again.

We'll talk to you later.

Kent: All right.

We'll see ya.

Bill Williams's video recording: Well,

thanks for hanging out with us for

this beyond the check ride episode.

And we hope you enjoyed it.

I'm sure some of you are fired

up about the topic and have

some opinions of your own.

So please reach out and

let us know your thoughts.

You can reach us via email

at bill at student pilotcast.

com or via the contact

page on the website.

You can also reach out

via X using at bill.

Well, that's Bravo, India, Lima,

Lima, whiskey, India, Lima.

And we do have a.

Instagram account for the podcast

called appropriately student pilot cast.

So feel free to contact

us there if you want to.

That said, I want everyone to have a

Merry Christmas and a great new year.

And keep the dirty side down by using

good checklists and using them well.

So we'll catch you on the next one.