SPC#81 – An Evening with Legion Air

All right, we got a special episode of the student pilot cast today.

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Um, I'm here on location,

which we don't usually do.

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Um, but I'm here at a local new

flight school called Legion Air,

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but we'll get to that in a second.

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Chandler Tower, Cherokee 4 1 2 1

tangos at Chandler Air Service.

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We have Zulu and, uh, we'd

like a south departure, please.

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One of those, it's said to be an angel.

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Bill: Alright guys, so welcome

to the student pilot cast.

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Oh, thanks.

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Thank you.

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Thanks for having us.

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So I'm sitting here with

Max and Carl and Matt.

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You guys want to introduce

yourselves real quick?

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Matt: Yeah, uh, my name's Matt.

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Um, locally from Arizona, been

flying for four years now and

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just really love aviation.

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Carl: I'm Carl.

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I'm from New York, uh,

Hudson Valley region.

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I've been flying for about four years now.

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I just got a position as first

officer in a regional airline.

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Max: Awesome.

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My name is Max.

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I'm originally from Tillamook, Oregon,

the land of cheese trees and ocean breeze.

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Um, so it's been quite the transition

moving down here and dealing

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with the heat, but I'm really

enjoying the aviation community.

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Bill: It's pretty nice this

time of year though, right?

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Yeah,

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Max: definitely.

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Bill: Cool.

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All right.

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So we're here because you guys

just started a flight school

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a few months back, right?

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All right.

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So, so before we get into any of that, Um,

I want to ask you guys, uh, one at a time.

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Max, I'll start with you.

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Okay.

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Why aviation?

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Why'd you get into aviation?

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Max: Yeah, definitely.

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Well, I grew up with an amazing pilot

grandmother who ultimately raised me,

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um, so we spent a lot of time at the

Tillamook Air Museum just bumming around

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on the weekends trying to catch rides

and fancy old World War II warbirds.

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And that just sparked a passion in me.

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Um, I ended up going off to school,

um, taking a break from flying.

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realized this is where I wanted to be.

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So I took the plunge and here I am.

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Carl: All right.

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Carl, what about you?

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All right, yeah.

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Silly story, but a fun story, right?

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So, uh, I went to college

for music performance.

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Jazz performance on the guitar.

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I was kind of like following

what my dad was doing.

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And I ended up moving

out to Texas for a while.

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And I was a part of the

blues rock scene out there.

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And to make ends meet, I I

was an Uber driver, right?

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Cause like my whole philosophy on life is

just like, try not to be behind a desk.

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You know, I feel like that's

sort of driving sort of crazy.

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And, um, you know, a big part

of like the Uber driving route

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would be in the mornings, right?

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Four to 6am taking people to the airport.

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And so I'm driving into Austin,

uh, international airport and I

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see, you know, just like a Boeing

flying overhead and it's coming in

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on approach and I'm sitting there.

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And I'm thinking to myself,

I'm like, bro, I could do that.

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I'm already doing that.

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Right.

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I've got a couple of guys in the

backseat, taking them to the airport.

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Might as well just like

get in an airplane.

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So when the pandemic hit and it dropped

the bottom out of the music industry,

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uh, I was like, all right, sweet.

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It's time, time for a career change.

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So I went back home, did an intro flight.

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I was like, this is one of the

best things I've ever done.

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Uh, and started research and flight

schools figured that probably

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Arizona was the place to be.

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And that's how I met

these two guys, right?

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Uh, they were both, uh, well, Max wasn't

Matt was my student for a hot second.

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Um, that's how I originally met

him and started flying out here.

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And, you know, it was definitely one

of the best things I've ever done.

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Bill: Awesome.

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So, um, you're basically wanting

to be an Uber driver of the sky.

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Carl: Yeah, that was the entire intention.

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I was like, they probably get paid

better, you know, like a little

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bit better than what I'm making.

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The

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Bill: app is better.

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Carl: The app is, oh man, dude,

let me tell you about the app.

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The app is amazing.

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The app can follow you across the country.

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Bill: Nice.

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All right,

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Matt: Matt.

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Uh, what about you?

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Uh, for me, I, uh, I'm the fourth

generation pilot in my family.

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Um, fifth current pilot.

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active pilot in the family.

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So aviation just been part

of my life growing up.

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And one day I took a flight with

my uncle and he's like, you know,

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you should, you should do this.

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And I was like, there's

no way I can do this.

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Um, struggled through high

school and thought aviation

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was just a hard thing to do.

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I'm not smart enough type

thing and then started flight

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training and here I am today.

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Bill: Excellent.

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All right, so you had people in

your family that were sort of

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mentors and things like that.

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Um, Max, did you have anybody like that?

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Max: Yeah, definitely.

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Your grandma, right?

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Yeah.

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So, um, my grandmother.

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And her father, uh, before

her, were both pilots.

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Um, she's not current anymore, but

I've always just carried her passion

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for flying and aviation with me.

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Um, I remember being, I think, ten years

old and reading through her father's war

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diary, essentially, and just thinking,

while it was horrible, the experiences

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that they were going through, um,

how amazing it was to be in the air.

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Cool.

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Bill: All right.

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Well, you guys came to Arizona and

you ended up meeting each other

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and then starting a flight school.

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How did that happen?

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Matt: Uh, well, originally, um,

we were at the big pilot mill, uh,

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ATP and Max and I ended up being

in the same CFI class together.

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And we just kind of sat in the back and

just kind of started talking to each

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other and BS and about aviation and

trying to build our lesson plans together.

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And we just hit it off.

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And then, um, like Carl mentioned

earlier, I was, he was my CSI instructor.

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So I went up on a couple CFI

proficiency flights with him.

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Just ended up really jiving with

his aura and everything, and we've

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just been friends ever since.

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Max: Yeah, and I think that's one of

those prime examples about how things just

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fall into place like they're supposed to.

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I remember that first day

at CFI Academy at ATP.

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I'm not a real talkative guy, not

very outgoing, but Matt just turned

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around and started talking to me.

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And from then on we became

study buddies, we worked through

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our lesson plans together.

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And then he met Carl and somehow

we all wound up working at the same

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flight school that wasn't ATP a

little bit longer down the line.

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It just was miraculous really.

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Bill: All right, and how

did you meet him, Carl?

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Carl: So, all right, you know, really,

really met Matt originally as a student

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and, uh, you know, he ended up moving on.

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I didn't really think I'd see

him again until I walked into,

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uh, yeah, the local flight school

that we all ended up working at.

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And I was looking for a job, right?

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So that was kind of an accident then.

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Oh, 100%.

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Yeah.

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But it was, but it was great.

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Like, you know, I walk into the

lobby, I'm wearing a suit and I'm

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like, Hey, like, Hey, what's up?

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I'm like, I need a job.

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He's like, all right, cool.

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And I ended up getting hired there.

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Uh, and then.

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You know, they eventually, I was

running their CFI program and eventually

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ended up making me their chief.

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And me and Matt were becoming

really good friends at that point.

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And we made him my assistant chief.

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I'm like, sweet.

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And then as things were progressing

at that school, we realized that

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there were other roles that needed

to be really taken care of, right?

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Cause it kind of

bottlenecked up to one guy.

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So I was trying to spread it out.

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And that's when we got Max on board.

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At that point, the three of us

had really solidified as a team.

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And when we determined that it

was time to start our own flight

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school, it seemed like a very logical

transition that it was going to be

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the three of us kind of up against it.

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Bill: You know?

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So I, I have to stop here for a minute.

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Um, you guys got to tell me, So, how

did, uh, how did Carl pull off a suit?

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This I would like to see.

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Yeah.

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Matt: I missed out on that.

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It was just, uh, cause I knew Carl

in the, the ATP blue and I was like,

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what the heck are you doing here, man?

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I had shoes on, nice shoes on

and not as Vans and I'm like,

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well, look, you clean up good.

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Yeah.

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Bill: Yeah.

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So for listeners who don't

know this, when I started.

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Uh, my CFI training, Carl started me

off, and I can't picture him in a suit.

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Matt: I'm having a hard time with that.

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Yeah, he came in the other day

wearing his, uh, has get up from

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and I was like, holy cow, man,

you actually look, you look good.

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Carl: Nice.

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Bill: All right.

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So why, why start a flight school?

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Like why, why not just keep

working at other flight

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schools that are in the Valley?

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What, what is special about Legionnaire?

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What are you trying to do?

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Uh, that's maybe a little bit different.

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Matt: Yeah, I think the main thing

that all of us had in in mind of what

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we wanted to do when we came up with

this idea was just we saw a bunch of

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the pros and we saw a bunch of the

cons and every school that we had gone

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to and work work for and trained at.

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They just seemed like the

transparency was a huge thing.

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Uh, there just wasn't enough transparency

with the training aspects of it.

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And it was like, Oh yeah, just come on,

you're doing fine, you're doing fine.

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Well, we didn't really like that.

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So it was like, all right, well,

how can we make this better?

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And then we were all sitting

having a beer one night and

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let's just start our own school.

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Next thing you know,

here, here Legionnaire is.

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Carl: Right.

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Cause like such a big.

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Deficiency that we're finding right now is

people are, they're glued to procedures,

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they're glued to things that they're

like, you know, they've been taught to do.

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It's like, this is just how I

enter a traffic pattern, but why?

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Right?

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You know, and this is one of the

biggest complaints we hear with the

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DPEs that we work with is that you

got, you got some guys who are acting

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just effectively, robotically, right?

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Automatic response.

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With.

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A lot of situations that, you

know, that they're fluid, even in

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something as basic as landing, right?

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We were having a conversation with one

of our students today and with like

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some of the key fundamentals of just

getting an airplane on the ground.

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And as you know, like an airplane

has to move forward in order to work.

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Right.

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So it's all about elevator effectiveness.

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So how do you make the

elevator more effective?

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If you're trying to keep the nose gear

off the ground when you land, it's

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like, dude, you gotta go faster, right?

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You need the plane moving through the air.

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So you're either losing too much

speed or you need something else

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to get the nose off the ground,

which would just be adding power.

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And it's these types of things that

we're really trying to get our students

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to think about so that when we put

them up against a DPE, they're like,

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yeah, dude, this guy is an aviator.

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He's not just someone who

met the requirements to

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legally pass a check, right?

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This guy is going to be good and safe.

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And, you know, big picture, all of these

guys are going to be flying around our

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friends and families for the most, right?

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That's most, mostly what we're

The pilot training nowadays

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is, is going to the airlines.

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So who do you want to make to put in

that flight, you know, like put in

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that, uh, put in that flight deck.

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Cause otherwise it could get really bad.

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You know, as you probably know that

we might end up talking about it, like

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when things go bad, they go bad fast.

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Right.

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Um, and getting out of it

isn't that hard if you, if you

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really know what you're doing.

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Yeah.

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If

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Matt: you understand what's going

on around you versus just, I got

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to do this, this, this and this.

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Well, why do you have to do that?

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So that was a big thing that we saw when

we were doing all of our stage checks

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and mock check rides for students.

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It's like you, you have the

knowledge there, but you don't

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have the knowledge there.

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You just have the real

understanding of what's going on.

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Max: Yeah.

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And circling back to why we did this,

uh, flight schools are naturally

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a polarizing subject, right?

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There are a lot of people who.

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Um, felt like ATP worked for them, right?

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But their process is

fundamentally inflexible, right?

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And that's why it doesn't work

for everyone, and that's why

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people wind up washing out.

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Um, the benefit of starting a smaller

flight school is we're allowed that

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flexibility to really tailor our

processes to the individual learner.

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I mean, as CFI training, a huge part

of the process of obtaining your CFI

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certificate is Tailoring your teaching

style to your individual student, right?

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So it doesn't really make sense to build

it around one type of person when there's

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so many types of people out there.

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Cool.

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Bill: All right.

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Sounds good.

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So why Legionnaire?

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How did that come about?

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Carl: Oh, all right.

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So the types of planes that

we're flying right now are

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Beechcraft Musketeers, right?

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And so it's kind of a pun, right?

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We're Musketeers in a Legion.

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So you're now a Legionnaire

flying a Musketeer, right?

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Clever.

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Bill: Um, all right.

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And so how's it been going?

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Like, what's it like to

start a flight school?

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Matt: Oh man, it's been tricky.

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Yeah.

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There's been some stuff that you,

you think, you know, everything,

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but you don't know everything.

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And it's, it's every day

is a learning process.

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Um, like Max was saying earlier,

trying to build a, a syllabus.

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All right.

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Well, this, how, what, what works best?

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Well, this worked good for me.

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That works good for you.

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And then trying to incorporate that

all from, let's just take all the

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good stuff and put it in there.

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And so it's like constantly remolding

it until we get that Perfect, uh,

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syllabus and so, uh, plan, basically.

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All

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Carl: right.

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I don't know.

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It's, it's tricky.

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Well, I mean, anything's

tricky in the beginning, right?

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So, it's, it's kind of funny in the sense

that the easiest part about starting

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your own flight school Flying, right?

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Yeah.

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Cause then you go back to everything

that you, that you've been doing

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and you just know it so well.

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It's like, yeah, dude, the easiest parts

about this is just being in a plane.

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Right.

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I think, uh, for, for the three of

us, the thing that we're finding

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is the most difficult part is

just the business aspect of it.

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Right.

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You know, it's just all the daily stuff

that you didn't really think about when

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you had that overhead provided for you.

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Right.

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And now it's up to us to

make all that stuff happen.

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Like finding DPS,

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like

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Bill: what a bummer.

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Tell me about it.

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You know?

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Carl: Yeah.

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Bill: Yeah.

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Okay.

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I can totally see that.

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So, um, now that you're getting

started, what's the best part

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about running your own flight

school and what's the worst part.

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Max: It's definitely like the personal

relationships that we have the

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opportunity to form, um, our students

are no longer molded into being just.

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Cash flow for someone else.

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I mean, we can actually spend the

amount of time, um, dedicated to

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our particular student, right?

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Um, and we don't really have the same

big brother oversight looking over our

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shoulder, um, forcing us to do things the

way that they want things done, right?

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There's that flexibility once again.

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Bill: So, what you're saying

is basically, um, Yeah.

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You have a philosophy on how you want to

do it, and by running your own, you're

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able to do it the way you want to do it.

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Max: Yeah, definitely.

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Treat people like

people, not like numbers.

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Carl: And like, you know,

alright, who was saying it?

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Was it your uncle?

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It was, or bringing up this

comment that like, you get a lot,

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especially in Phoenix, right?

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The majority of your cross country flight

training is to like three airports.

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Yeah.

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You know what I mean?

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And like, I can't stand that.

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Oh, it's ridiculous.

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You know what I mean?

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Like, yeah, sure.

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Okay.

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Marana from here is cross country,

but if you only ever go there, do you

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like really understand how to do it?

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So like Max and I flew

one of our students.

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And, uh, Utah, you mean?

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Utah and back, right?

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And that's something that we can

do since we're in charge of the

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operations of our aircraft now, right?

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As opposed to going to, you

know, whatever management and

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be like, please let me do this.

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Like, oh, it's too far,

too much of liability.

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It's like, dude, what

do you mean liability?

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Like, I'm a pilot.

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I'm training this person to be a pilot.

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You know, crossing state

borders is huge, right?

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Now you have to really think about

things like fuel planning, weather

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patterns, uh, change in pressure, all

that different stuff that you're not

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going to get in such a localized area.

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Yeah.

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Time zones.

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Yeah.

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Bill: Who has time zones?

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It's all Zulu time, right?

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Oh, that's there you go, baby.

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Yeah.

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So, I.

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This is a pet peeve of mine.

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I'm trying to, my son, my listeners know

that my son, Merrick is a private pilot.

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he, his plan has been to continue

on, although he's in a bit of a I

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don't know, a slow point right now,

a holding pattern, there you go.

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but, he was trying to build time and he

was doing these cross countries and I'm

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going, bro, you've got to go other places.

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Like this is not teaching you anything.

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I don't remember exactly how many

hours I had at the time, but I think.

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probably had like 150 hours and I decided

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to take one of my club 182s and fly with

a non pilot to Oshkosh for the week.

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I learned some stuff on that

flight, as you can imagine.

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And it was an incredible experience

and those are the types of experience

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that I think pilots should have.

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And it sounds like you guys kind of agree.

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You probably don't know this, but

I, I do a, I do a feature on the

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podcast called beyond the check

ride, and I do it with one of my

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old co hosts from the pilot cast.

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And, um, we're always talking about,

we take a single topic that isn't

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really covered as part of the, uh,

Any curriculum for private pilot

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and, we kind of go into that.

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Those are the types of things like

fueling your airplane on your own.

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like how do you tie down

at a strange airport?

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you know, how do you plan your descent

when you're on a real cross country?

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How, you know, those types of things that

really aren't in the, um, I, I almost

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said PTS cause I'm old, but in the ACS.

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Um, but those are the things you

learn when you start actually flying.

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So how do you guys give those sorts

of experiences to your students?

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Matt: we had one student that, uh, was

going in for a CFI and just came from

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one of those pilot mills that, All

they knew was GPS and that was really

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lacking the, uh, um, piloted skills.

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And so it was like just taking that

GPS away from her and Carl made her

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just fly it with a VFR sectional chart.

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I mean, you can speak more on that.

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Yeah,

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Carl: you know, I mean, but, but that's,

that's the whole idea of it, right?

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So it's kind of bringing back

some old school techniques, right?

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Like I, you know, being able to look

at a map and just identifying it.

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What's on it and where you

are in relationship to it.

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So like, you know, this

particular student of mine, right.

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You know, I kind of did a demo with her

as we were flying back from Wickenburg,

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which is just North of Phoenix.

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And it was nighttime and I kind of

wanted to make sure that I could do it.

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So I was like, all right, dude, I'm

like, I'm going to prove it to you.

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Right.

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No GPS at night, paper sectional.

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I'm getting us back to Falcon.

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Right.

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And you start thinking about all

these different, you know, Different

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ways of, uh, you know, just looking

around and different types of cues.

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Which is, that's, that's one of the

big things that people are lacking.

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Like, the, the biggest example I gave

her was like, we're looking straight

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ahead and like, do you see this

light, like way off past the prop?

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She's like, yeah.

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I'm like, do you see how

it's skipping off the ground?

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It's like reflecting.

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She's like, yeah.

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I'm like, okay, we're in Arizona.

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What do you think that is?

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Like, why do you think it's

skipping off the ground?

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She's like, I don't know.

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Yeah, it's not ice, but

it's like ice is water.

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Right?

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So here you go, kid.

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Right.

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What's the only major body of

water on this map right now

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and is a Lake Pleasant, right?

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Yeah.

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And we're like sick.

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All right, cool.

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So we know right now we're

facing Lake Pleasant.

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And we just got to keep going that way.

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Look at your compass.

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Which way are we going?

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We're going Southwest, uh, Southeast.

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Sweet.

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All right.

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So on this heading, right, once

we get over that lake, what's

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going to be another landmark and

it's that sort of stuff, right?

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Things where you can like really

take the time to like, just

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get them to work on something.

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Um, that's going to be like wildly beyond

the comfort zone of most flight schools.

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Like a lot of flight schools don't

even want you flying at night unless

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it's for the night requirement.

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Right.

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You know,

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Max: yeah, when I was training

at one of those big box flight

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schools, not all too long ago, um,

I was accomplishing one of my cross

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country flights with my instructor.

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I was working on my commercial

rating and we flew up from Tucson

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to Phoenix Mesa gateway, right?

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And we got off a little bit late.

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We got dinner, we got back to the plane.

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Um, and the sun was starting to

set, you know, we ate up more

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time than we had anticipated.

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Um, and unfortunately that school had a

requirement or, um, yeah, a requirement

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that we could not fly at night unless

it was for the purpose of satisfying

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nighttime towards a rating, right?

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Wow.

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So we had to call their headquarters

in Jacksonville, Florida to receive

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approval to fly back to Tucson

right after the sunset, right?

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I was, uh, an instrument rated

pilot at this point, working

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on my commercial rating.

488

She was a very experienced CFI with

1, 400 hours and we could not fly back

489

without the approval of somebody sitting

in a cubicle in Jacksonville, Florida.

490

Does that make any sense?

491

No.

492

Bill: Yeah, that's pretty wild.

493

I didn't know that.

494

Yeah.

495

I didn't, I didn't know that

kind of thing was going on.

496

Carl: I mean, that's just the

stuff that you get at the flight

497

schools that are really just

producing pilots, like based on FAA.

498

minimum standards.

499

You know what I mean?

500

Uh, like all the, all the fast track

stuff, which there's nothing wrong with

501

a fast track program per se, right?

502

What ends up going wrong is, uh, you get

a lot of the blind, lean the blind, right?

503

So you get, yeah, they'll, they'll,

they'll, they usually hired house, which

504

is like pretty typical for like any place.

505

Right.

506

But you get a weaker instructor who

isn't comfortable flying at night.

507

Right.

508

They produce a pilot that isn't

comfortable flying at night.

509

That pilot becomes a flight instructor.

510

Now, their student, right, isn't, is

probably even less comfortable flying

511

at night, having learned from a person

who is uncomfortable flying at night.

512

Right?

513

And it just like starts

snowballing on itself.

514

Max: And eventually they get to

their 1, 500 hours and all of a

515

sudden they're an airline pilot who's

not comfortable flying at night.

516

That's

517

Carl: scary.

518

Right.

519

Or, I mean, at least without

the use of autopilot.

520

Right.

521

And it's like, right.

522

Cause you know, what do you, what

do you do if the autopilot fails?

523

The plane will be fine.

524

The plane will be perfectly fine.

525

You just got to use trim now.

526

Right.

527

Easy solutions.

528

But think about like the panic

and the shock factor that goes

529

into it and how much people start

getting wrapped up in their heads

530

cause they're just not used to it.

531

Right.

532

Yeah.

533

I

534

Carl: mean, that's why I'm a,

I'm a big proponent of like

535

teaching people in six packs.

536

I would love to have a glass

cockpit, don't get me wrong.

537

But flying in a six pack just makes you

fly the plane as an extension of yourself.

538

Bill: Well, the, the avionics

can be a huge distraction.

539

Yeah.

540

And I mean, even with a six

pack, sometimes you have a hard

541

time getting a student to look

outside the airplane, right?

542

But you put a giant video game

screen in front of them, and

543

it's going to be way worse.

544

Especially for younger pilots or

younger students who have grown

545

up in a video game age, right?

546

So, yeah, for sure, those are huge

distractions, and it's hard to cover

547

them up with a small sticky note.

548

Oh yeah, without like taking

the whole thing out, you know?

549

Carl: Yeah, I think a big part of our,

uh, idea here is try to, try to break

550

all the crutches that we've seen, right?

551

You know?

552

I love it.

553

Yeah.

554

Yeah.

555

Cause you just don't need it.

556

You don't need it.

557

I mean like, it's, I don't know

dude, I feel like flying a little

558

plane is like riding a motorcycle.

559

Which you know.

560

Yeah.

561

You know what I mean?

562

And you gotta like, you gotta make

that bike do what you want it to

563

do and not the other way around.

564

Cause once it goes the other way

around, stuff starts getting weird.

565

Like.

566

For

567

Max: sure.

568

You know.

569

And one last thing to note.

570

Something to consider with those

bigger box flight schools is the

571

last filter in all of their decision

making from the headquarters on

572

down to the flight instructor.

573

is liability, right?

574

That's the last thing they consider.

575

There is excess liability when they

send a certified flight instructor and a

576

commercial student out on a cross country

at night when they don't need to, right?

577

That's money that could be potentially

pulled out of their pockets.

578

And we don't have that filter.

579

I mean, not to the same extent, at least,

obviously we don't want our planes broken.

580

We don't want to put them

in an unsafe condition.

581

We would never do that.

582

But there's Necessity and there's

excess, um, risk consideration, right?

583

Carl: Right.

584

You know, just from like a purely monetary

standpoint, like that's not what we're

585

concerned about with our risk mitigation.

586

You know, it's like,

yeah, dude, it's fine.

587

We'll spend a little extra money to

give you a really valuable experience.

588

Right.

589

Like as best as we can,

you know what I mean?

590

Bill: Right.

591

Well, that's, uh, that's

pretty cool because, I, right.

592

In my, you know, my time, my 15 years in

aviation, I've seen it change quite a bit.

593

Back when I was doing my private, we, we

did more of that, at least where I trained

594

at, at Chandler Air Service back then.

595

It's a totally different place now,

different management and everything,

596

but, and I'm sure they're great.

597

I'm not saying anything bad about

them, but, it was, it was really

598

like new experiences and we were

supposed to go get new experiences.

599

And I was, you know, my long cross

countries and my, my cross countries,

600

my solo cross countries, I should

say, we're all into the mountains in

601

the summer, which, I think are good

experiences, you know, as long as you're

602

being taught to expect what's going to

happen in high density altitude and,

603

how much extra runway you're going

to need and the climb performance.

604

And I mean, these are things that

I think, does a pilot good, to

605

experience and experience on their

own sometimes when they're the PIC,

606

even before they get their ticket.

607

So I love, I love that

you guys are doing that.

608

Matt: Most definitely.

609

I don't think I really thought

that I could fly an airplane

610

until I left from Chandler.

611

And flew all the way to Dallas

solo in a single and in the

612

Musketeer and eight zero Quebec.

613

And I was like, Once I landed

there on a grass strip, never

614

landed on a grass strip before.

615

It was like, man, I actually just

circumnavigated half the United States

616

with a VOR and stuff that that's

kind of what we want to bring in back

617

into the training environment is like

what Carl was saying earlier, is just

618

breaking that, those crutches and.

619

to the nitty gritty of making a decision

and being able to determine whether

620

or not you're making the correct

decision and how to perform that.

621

Bill: All right.

622

So let's get into some, uh, let's

get into some controversy because

623

most of your students, most of

your students are probably, You

624

know, headed to the airlines.

625

it seems to be, you know, a lot of

the students, learning to fly right

626

now are not planning on going just

into GA, but some are, but a lot

627

are going to the airlines, right?

628

How, how do you think this type

of training, uh, by changing your

629

model, how do you think that's

going to affect positive or negative

630

pilots who end up in the airlines?

631

and On the other side of that coin,

how does training to the ACS and kind

632

of, you know, doing it the pilot mill

way, if you will, how do you think

633

that, you know, contributes to the

negative side of going to the airlines?

634

Can you guys talk about that a little bit?

635

Carl: Yeah.

636

Right.

637

All right.

638

So I think.

639

A major mindset of a lot of these

students is going to the airlines.

640

I'm going to be flying

a super sophisticated.

641

Automated plane, right?

642

You know, and like speaking from

experience right now, like the main

643

part of your job is just taxi takeoff

and landing, but they take that

644

mindset with them into, uh, like

their regular everyday training.

645

I've got like one of my CFI

students want to bash my head

646

against the wall is like here.

647

Tell me about VORs and it's like, give me

like this, like a little spiel about it.

648

And he's like, but like,

realistically, I would just use a GPS.

649

I'm like, yeah, dude, I get it.

650

I get it, right.

651

Yeah.

652

You would realistically use a GPS,

but we're not gonna, you know, there

653

are very, there's a very slim chance

you would have to rely on a VOR, but

654

you gotta know how to do it, right.

655

And you gotta be able to know how

to do it well and figure it out.

656

If you have nothing, right.

657

You know what I mean?

658

Bill: So, most people don't

understand that GPS signals from the

659

satellites are barely above the noise.

660

These, you know, there's these massive

like solid state filters on these GPS

661

to even get the signal out of the noise.

662

Very easy to jam.

663

So So, And very easy to lose that.

664

And we've become so accustomed to

always having it, that we think it's

665

always going to be there, but it's

really not that far fetched to think

666

that there'll be a time where you're

up flying and GPS is not accurate.

667

Oh yeah.

668

And Matt and I

669

Max: experienced that.

670

I, when we were working at our

last flight school, we had the

671

opportunity to ferry two Piper

Archer threes from Tulsa, Oklahoma to

672

Falcon field here in Mesa, Arizona.

673

Right.

674

And it was a very long flight to do in

one day, and we had to do it in one day

675

for reasons we'll probably get into later.

676

But, we were passing through West Texas,

near White Sands, and very hot military

677

area, and they had jammed all of the GPSs.

678

And we heard, uh, uh, what was it?

679

Matt: ATP was like, they were

telling them to do a departure,

680

and they're like, well, I can't.

681

And They were like, well, career

track, you got to do this.

682

You'd fly the VOR.

683

And they're like, well, my GPS is out.

684

And it's like, what the heck?

685

And yeah, then when we landed in Deming,

um, there were two other planes that

686

landed in front of us, a Cirrus and

a, uh, one 82, I believe, and both

687

of them grabbed their POHs and went

into the boardroom and I was like,

688

I wonder what those guys are doing.

689

So I went in there and

talked to him for a second.

690

And they're like, yeah, our GPS, GPSs

weren't working, our autopilot wouldn't

691

work, and I just bought this plane,

we're flying back to California, and

692

now it's not working, and I'm like,

yeah, it's not, you're not going to

693

find anything in there, they, they jam

GPSs over here in the white sands all

694

the time, and he's like, oh, I thought

something was wrong with my airplane.

695

They're just, everyone's

just so reliant on.

696

The new stuff.

697

Okay,

698

Bill: I rest my case.

699

Carl: Right, yeah.

700

I mean, we're all on

the same page for sure.

701

And I think, I think it's students

are going in with the wrong

702

attitude as a result, right?

703

They're trying to make it to

the stage where like, yeah, you

704

become a glorified button pusher.

705

Which, to be fair, to be like completely

fair to like all the airline pilots

706

out there, it's not all it is.

707

Yeah.

708

Like, you know.

709

You're there

710

Bill: for the emergencies too.

711

Carl: Well, yeah.

712

Yeah.

713

But like, you know.

714

I mean, just, just remember this, like,

next time it's super bumpy coming into

715

land, there is some poor 30 year old guy

sweating it out, like, death gripping

716

the controls trying to hold plane level.

717

You know what I mean?

718

Like, they're probably not taking the GP,

like, the autopilot all the way in, right?

719

Just

720

Bill: like you were in flight school.

721

Just like

722

Carl: you were in flight school.

723

Some

724

Bill: things don't change, right?

725

Carl: Right, and like, now the thing with

the ACS is, it's the FAA's way to try

726

to standardize and present a template.

727

To be tested on, right?

728

People are testing to the ACS.

729

So what they're trying to do is

they're trying to create every

730

maneuver in every scenario based

on a set of like given parameters,

731

because that is the legal document

that they're supposed to be tested on.

732

And I think what kind of like what

we were alluding to earlier in the

733

conversation is, is just preventing

people from getting like a really good.

734

experience in a lot of ways, right?

735

What is it for commercial?

736

A hundred hours of cross country?

737

Uh, I think so.

738

I'll top of my head.

739

Yeah, we should know.

740

I mean, but, but point being right, you

can fulfill that by going very short.

741

Consistent distances, right?

742

But it's not real cross country.

743

You, you're legally required to do one

300 nautical mile cross country, but

744

that's, that's it, you know what I mean?

745

Like how much do you really

learn from doing anything once?

746

Yeah, it's just like, you know,

they're, they're doing their best, but

747

like, if you, if that is the training

document that you're teaching to,

748

you're teaching people how to get out

of very specific situations, right?

749

And you gotta, you gotta

start like thinking about.

750

You know, like the more broad sort

of strokes, you know what I mean?

751

Like, well, I mean, like, here you go.

752

What do you do if your

oil temperature spikes?

753

Do you know what's going on?

754

I don't entirely know what's going on.

755

I have an idea of where

I would start though.

756

Right.

757

And okay, here we go.

758

Right.

759

Matt, you know, this story better

than I do, but, uh, uh, the, uh,

760

the Oxford Atlanta on the road.

761

You know what I'm talking about?

762

Oh, yeah, yeah.

763

You know what I mean?

764

Not too long ago.

765

Like a ridiculous situation right here.

766

Yeah, just give them the

767

Matt: synopsis.

768

Out by, out by my house and like

a bunch of my neighbors text me,

769

did you try to land at your house?

770

And I was like, no, I didn't.

771

Cut my commute down, but it wasn't me.

772

And um, they said that they had

smelled electrical fire or fire.

773

So they shut it down and they

landed on a two lane highway

774

out in the south practice area.

775

And school buses had to dive

off the road and they landed.

776

And after, after they started

investigating it, uh, from my

777

knowledge, from what I was reading is

that there was no fire or anything.

778

But even then it's like, okay, what would

you do if you got an electrical fire?

779

Well, I'm going to start pulling

breakers and shut the master off and

780

I'm going to continue on to Gateway.

781

Bill: Fly to an airport.

782

Yeah.

783

With all

784

Matt: the electrical system off.

785

Exactly.

786

And so it's, but they were just following

the SOPs and this is what I got to do.

787

I'm going to go here.

788

And I got into a debate with, uh, another

one of the CFI students, and I said,

789

well, what would you do in that scenario?

790

Well, I probably would've

done the same thing.

791

And I was like, why is that?

792

You wouldn't troubleshoot in a

793

Bill: helicopter,

794

Matt: right?

795

But we're relating it

back to the airplanes.

796

And he was, uh, is like, I'd probably

do the same thing because that's the

797

procedure out there and he was military

and they're, you're trained in the

798

military to follow the procedures.

799

And so it's like, okay, well.

800

Let's break that and then I'd

explain my my thoughts on it.

801

He was like, yeah, you're probably right

I would probably do the same thing.

802

I would want my Students

to think that way.

803

So that's kind of what we're trying

to hope to bring to it because they

804

Max: And for anybody that uses the ACS

as a crutch Right here on the first page

805

task a in regards to risk management We

have the applicant is able to identify,

806

assess, and mitigate risks associated

with proficiency versus currency, right?

807

And that's what all of these

arguments come down to.

808

You can be a current pilot with a private

pilot rating, who does not know or

809

understand how to handle a situation where

you smell smoke in the cockpit, right?

810

Whose first reaction is to land

on a two way highway and not only

811

risk their lives, but the lives of

the kids in the school bus, right?

812

Carl: Right.

813

Yeah, I mean, like, I think it is

important to remember that these

814

procedures are in place, like,

if it is a really obvious thing.

815

Procedures are also a good

place to start, right?

816

But, you gotta, you gotta be, you

gotta be, you gotta be a pilot, right?

817

At some point, just be like,

alright, here we go, right?

818

First of all, if I smell

electrical smoke, what could it

819

possibly be coming from, right?

820

And that's why, you know,

you shut down everything.

821

That's the thing.

822

But if you're really knowledgeable

about what's going on, it's like,

823

yeah, dude, if I shut down everything,

but the mixture's in and the mags are

824

still on, the plane still runs, right?

825

And like, how long does it take me

to get from, it was basically like

826

Johnson Ranch area to Gateway, right?

827

Five minutes, right?

828

You know, so unless you see like actual

fire licking up by your feet, go forward.

829

You know what I mean?

830

Right, right, right.

831

Uh, just, you know, just follow

your lost comms procedures, make

832

a safe decision, land on a runway,

call ATC afterwards, right?

833

Because I think that is another thing, is

a lot of people live in this world where

834

they're just afraid to get in trouble.

835

It's like, stop, right?

836

You know, it's probably better

to be thinking about the ATC

837

system with pilots more as a team.

838

You know what I mean?

839

Like, they're not gonna,

they're not gonna, you know,

840

Yeah, for sure.

841

Matt: I mean, I bring up the, I

got a phone number, um, and I'd

842

tell all my students that I said,

it's, don't be afraid of them.

843

They're there to help us.

844

Um, don't get in the mindset

that we work for them.

845

They work for us.

846

They're just helping.

847

They're just help clearing the area.

848

We're the ones

849

Bill: with the butts on the line.

850

Right.

851

Yeah.

852

Right.

853

Matt: Yeah.

854

When I landed on the, I was, I was out at

Chandler and coming into land from Dallas

855

in my mind, I'm like, all right, cool.

856

I'm going to land on 22 right

from Deming, New Mexico.

857

I just kept saying that in my

head, I'm cleared to land 22 right.

858

Cause that's where the plane ties

down in the ramp and he cleared

859

me to land 22 left and I was like,

yeah, cleared to land 22 right.

860

And came in, landed, and he's like,

Hey, I got a phone number for you.

861

And I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah.

862

My heart sunk, and I was

like, I just lost my cert.

863

Everything's done.

864

I called him up, and he's like, Yeah,

do you know why I gave you the number?

865

I said no, but we talked about it,

and he said, You landed on the wrong

866

runway, you're cleared to land 2

2 left, and you landed 2 2 right.

867

Luckily, there was nobody there.

868

I was the only plane coming in.

869

And we talked about it for a

second, and I said, well, I, I'm

870

pretty sure I said 2 2 right.

871

And he said, well, let me check

the tapes, and he came back, and

872

he said, yeah, we both missed it.

873

So, it's a learning experience, and

that's what the FAA really, at the

874

end of the day, wants you to Right.

875

Is, don't be afraid to make

a mistake, cause you're just,

876

you gotta learn from it.

877

Yep.

878

Yeah.

879

Yeah.

880

Bill: Yep.

881

All right, cool.

882

So we've already talked a little

bit about it, but you guys know

883

I just, um, am a brand new CFI.

884

Congratulations.

885

So what are, what are some of

the things I can look forward to?

886

Give me some of your best.

887

Instructor, or when you

were a student, stories.

888

Uh, I got a

889

Carl: bunch.

890

Bill: Alright, alright, alright,

891

Carl: here we go.

892

Bill: And we'll, you know,

we'll leave names out to protect

893

the innocent or the guilty.

894

Carl: Alright, here we go.

895

I'll tell you the quick story

of how I ended up, uh, working

896

with these guys at our 61 school.

897

My departure from ATP.

898

Awesome.

899

It was awesome.

900

Right?

901

So, uh, I went a little

too hard on a maneuver.

902

Uh, so unusual attitudes.

903

I, I think I've, I've told you the story.

904

Yeah.

905

Right.

906

I do remember.

907

You know, the short and simple of it was,

um, you know, when I was working as a,

908

You know, uh, a CFI instructor, right?

909

Teaching people to be CFIs at ATP.

910

And, you know, I wanted to give someone

a genuine shock factor because it happens

911

from time to time, like, you know, I've

been unintentionally spun by a student

912

and that's a genuine shock factor.

913

You're like, Oh, okay, here we go.

914

We're in a situation.

915

And so, you know, one thing.

916

That, you know, I don't know if I've

told you, but just remember your

917

students are incredibly literal, right?

918

And so you have to speak in

an incredibly literal way.

919

And I was demonstrating that with this

guy and I was like, all right, cool.

920

Show me how to trim the plane.

921

And he's like, okay.

922

So I'm like, all right,

so what's the idea, right?

923

Like the, the plane feels like it's a.

924

Fail the plane feels like

it's starting to pitch up.

925

What do I do?

926

He's like, oh, you know, he's

just like, uh, oh, no Yeah, the

927

plane feels like it's pitch day.

928

He's like, yeah, so give it some

uptrip now We're in a Cessna 172 the

929

trim wheel right if you spin it from

the floor That's nose down, right?

930

And so I'm like, Oh, I'm

gonna be a little silly guy.

931

Okay, sure.

932

I'll give it some up trim.

933

Right.

934

And so I spin the wheel up and

I know he's not looking at me.

935

So I'm like six.

936

So this is another good, like

you got to monitor your student.

937

You got to like, and you

938

Bill: were sort of acting as the student.

939

Yeah,

940

Carl: it's just like playing around.

941

Right.

942

Uh, pretending to be the student.

943

Which, you know, PSA to all flight

instructors out there, right?

944

You gotta watch like everything

your student does, no matter

945

their experience level, right?

946

The guy who spun me was a

commercial student on his

947

commercial mock truck ride, right?

948

Full on spin dope.

949

Anyway.

950

So this kid, uh, I started

spinning the trim wheel up

951

and I'm like, all right, cool.

952

Now I'm holding the plane like.

953

Level and I'm doing a pretty good job

because we're like straight level, right?

954

You've been

955

Bill: going to the gym.

956

Yeah, you know, yeah,

957

Carl: it's just absolutely juiced up and

I turn to him like alright, so how do I

958

know when when the plane's trimmed out?

959

He's like, well, you should be able to

let go of the yoke and the plane will

960

stay where it is I'm like, oh cool.

961

So I did right and the plane proceeds

to incredibly dramatic nose dive.

962

Just BAM!

963

Right, straight down.

964

And, uh, you know, his eyes go wide,

and I just get this giant grin,

965

and we pull up, uh, and, you know,

he's like, ah, man, that was crazy.

966

I was like, oh, yeah.

967

And, uh, we, we went negative

G's and I looked in the back and

968

there's a huge crack in the window.

969

I'm like, Oh, right.

970

Cause in the dive, everything that was on

the ground went to the ceiling, including

971

the chalks in the back of the airplane.

972

Right.

973

Uh, which.

974

I mean, big learning

experience for me, right?

975

Obviously don't do that.

976

Or, you know, or

977

Bill: tie everything down.

978

Carl: That's the real,

that's the real thing, right?

979

Because if I just secured everything

in the aircraft, you know, uh,

980

probably wouldn't have lost my

job, but then I would have never

981

really linked up with these guys.

982

So I'm like, yeah, okay.

983

You know, I'm kind of happy I did

984

Max: that.

985

Carl: I didn't like in the long run.

986

Max: For all those, uh, future

Legionnaire students here.

987

We do have cargo nets in, uh, the baggage

compartment of the musketeers, and that

988

Matt: We learned from previous mistakes.

989

Hey, that's what

990

Bill: it's all

991

Matt: about, right?

992

Yeah,

993

Bill: it's a learning experience.

994

It's always learning.

995

Always learning.

996

Awesome.

997

Anybody else got a good

story they want to tell?

998

Matt: Um, I got one just

from being a student.

999

Um, so I got my license and

then never thought I would do

anything in the aviation industry.

Just wanted to be a good pilot.

because my whole family was a pilot.

That's how I

Bill: started too.

And then here I am with CFI.

Matt: Right.

And, um, so got the, the idea one

day to go to flight school and, uh,

went to ATP and loved my instructor.

We still talk all the time.

She's now flying for Airlines.

And, um, so we still have a really

good relationship, but, um, It was

on one of my instrument flights,

one of my first flights with her.

And I had about 250, 260 hours

at the time, because I did a

lot of just flying on my own.

And she, I was her first student and, uh,

we got done after the flight and she was,

very upset with me and got out of the

plane and got her stuff and like looked at

me and she goes you're a phenomenal stick

and rudder but you're a shitty pilot and

flipped her hair at me and walked away and

I was like what the heck does that mean?

And um, Didn't, didn't

sign my log book that day.

It didn't, didn't even debrief me.

Nothing.

She just let me sit on that for

a day and came back the next day.

And she's like, I was like,

what was up with that?

And she's like, you don't know

how to hold your altitude.

You don't know how to hold a heading.

Cause I had 250 plus hours of me just

being a VFR pilot, flying however I

wanted, doing whatever I wanted to do.

The weather anymore.

That, that gets, I look outside.

Um, and so that was like

a big eye opener for me.

It was like, Oh, okay.

I got to take this serious.

And that was a, a big thing for

me because at the time I was like,

I don't need to listen to you.

I have more hours than

you and type of thing.

So yeah, it was a humbling moment for me.

Oh, that's cool.

Bill: And there's always something

we can learn from anybody.

Max: And a piece of advice for all

those future flight instructors out

there, you vomited on at some point.

So I have a fun story about that one.

Yeah.

I had a student who, for the

first six flights in his aviation

journey, vomited every time.

The first time he didn't have a

barf bag, but headset bag didn't

make it out of that venture.

So who has to clean that up?

Matt: Maintenance.

Max: We taxied back in and after that

first flight, he had gotten most of it out

of the little like five by five window,

um, on the side of the Piper Cherokee

and painted a nice racing stripe down it.

Um, and we were taxing in and the flight

school that I worked at at the time

had a really, really great ramp guy.

Um, and I could just see his

face drop as we rolled in.

Um, we got out of the plane and I insisted

that he let my student and I clean it up.

But he was very, well, more

insistent than I was that he had

to clean it because it was his job.

He was one of those very

literal folks out there.

But, um, you know, later on down the

line, after that had happened a few times,

we got to the point where I had to sit

down with the student and say, Hey, man.

This isn't going to work for you.

This isn't going to be a career for you.

If you can't hold your luncheon for

a one and a half hour flight, right?

Next lesson, we're going up.

I'm doing all of the flying and we're

going to do commercial maneuvers.

We're going to do lazy eights,

steep turns, 55 degree bank.

Wait, wait, wait.

He was a commercial pilot.

No, he was a private pilot,

but this was my plan, right?

So we go up, we do all this stuff.

He's completely fine.

The whole flight never comes back.

So I don't know if I had, uh, you know,

happened upon an ingenious idea and fix

this guy's permanent motion sickness

or what, but he never threw up again.

And what do you think did it?

I pushed him past his limits, right?

Oh, you were doing

Bill: maneuvers that you,

that you hadn't done before.

You're doing maneuvers that got

you more over more up and down.

Yeah, exactly.

All right.

Carl: Right.

I mean, like, yeah, anxiety

Matt: puke.

Cause that's what a lot of students

just come in and they just so anxious

and, Oh man, what do I got to do?

And I know I had one, on his

first flight, did the same thing.

And I was like, Oh my gosh, don't do this.

I

Carl: think, uh, in, in terms of that,

you know, as you get your first student,

like if you get a zero, zero time student,

Try to take them up like early in the

morning or kind of in the evening,

especially when like the air is smooth.

When it's

Bill: smooth,

Carl: yeah.

But what you got to remember in

the beginning, because motion

sickness is just really, really bad.

Um, like it's a fight between

what you are visually seeing

and what your body's feeling.

So when you're new person in a new

airplane, you're gonna, at some

point you're going to feel sick.

And then one comes down to you, how

well you can hold it in, but doing

things like what Max was doing,

which helps fix their sight picture.

Of like, what they're feeling

and what they're seeing.

Once your brain reckon, like,

starts to rectify what it is,

the motion sickness goes away.

Yeah.

Right?

And so, you know, just doing, doing

some easy stuff in the beginning.

Uh, and I remember when I was

first learning, I got the most

motion sick coming into the land.

Really?

Yeah, for me it was, it was the

uh, scale change, and like how fast

the scale changed, and then like

what you're feeling, you know, as

you're coming in, you're like, whoa.

Uh, I got over that in a couple of

flights though, but again, it was once,

once your body gets used to it, you're

going to feel a lot better, or your

students will feel a lot better, you know?

Bill: Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool.

All right.

Well, guys, good luck

with the flight school.

Really appreciate the, uh, the

opportunity to sit down and talk to you.

It's fun to hear the stories.

Thanks

Max: for having us

Bill: on.

Max: Yeah, thank you.

Bill: Absolutely.

All right.

Thanks.

We'll talk to you soon.